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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 04, 2011, 12:11:06 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXBk4MlEvEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXBk4MlEvEo)
Go to about 1:30 mark of video
One of the nation's highest rated prep running backs was ejected in the 3d qtr for his 2d UNS in the game. Still looking for video of first foul (reportedly a throat slash) but 2d looks like the correct call to me.
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Correct call.
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The TD was erased
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This is one of the actions explicitly listed in rule 9-2 as earning a flag. ^flag
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Absolutely the right call. Looks like 7 man crew. Can't tell for sure, but look like FJ threw the penalty. If so, should he have signaled touchdown since he knew it wouldn't count?
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Clearly altered his stride. Shouldn't the FJ signal touchdown since that was the result of the play? Also, I know player numbers aren't announced for fouls, but are they supposed to be for ejections?
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Good call.
If the first USC was also on a touchdown and the kid didn't learn when that one was called. Maybe he'll learn when he has to take his pads off and watch the rest of the game. He's playing next week, so let's hope the coach can teach him something.
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Who were those announcers? man they were bad.
So, for those of us who are usually with the runners as they cross the goal line, high stepping is a foul, but pointing to the sky number one isnt, correct? ;D
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It is until they add that to the book (pointing up at the sky)
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Clearly altered his stride. Shouldn't the FJ signal touchdown since that was the result of the play? Also, I know player numbers aren't announced for fouls, but are they supposed to be for ejections?
I am not signalling TD if I have a catch by the WR and I threw and OPI on the play. I know the result of the play is not a TD.
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Yes, 7-man crew. The first flag was a throat slash motion on a TD. He said he was "celebrating with the fans" and not taunting the other team.
According to some fans from both teams, Gray was yelling at the officials after the game as they were leaving the field and had to be separated by police officers.
What amuses me is that in some games (Ozen-LaMarque) they blame the officials for "losing control" of the game. In other games, the officials are too strict. IMO, this game could have easily gotten out of control if the crew had not been on top of it.
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The first flag was a throat slash motion on a TD. He said he was "celebrating with the fans" and not taunting the other team.
According to some fans from both teams, Gray was yelling at the officials after the game as they were leaving the field and had to be separated by police officers.
So, basically NO, this kid can't learn. Do it again kid and sit again. Hey, maybe this time you can cost your team a victory or a state championship.
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According to some fans from both teams, Gray was yelling at the officials after the game as they were leaving the field and had to be separated by police officers.
This has been clarified. It was actually the player's father, a former NFL player, who accosted the refs after the game. I hope they did an incident report.
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Being very nickpicky here: I think that the calling official would have thrown flag at a spot instead of in the air.
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Being very nickpicky here: I think that the calling official would have thrown flag at a spot instead of in the air.
I don't know about "nickpicky". But your recommendation is not nitpicky. Now am I being nitpicky?
Any error in marking the spot of that foul directly affects establishing the correct succeeding spot - similar to missing forward progress or a ball carrier going OB. Granted this is the first year that USC fouls are basic spot fouls and officials may be a bit slow conforming to the new rule, especially at start of the season. But this is playoff game at the end of the year.
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The announcers clearly say "he has done that all year", in re-guards to the altered stride into the EZ. He has scored 200 TDs so that means allot of opportunities for a USL. Somehow I don't think that is accurate, but still interesting.
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Great call, announcers are utter morons.
Side note-wish stephenville had actually shown up in that game...
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This has been clarified. It was actually the player's father, a former NFL player, who accosted the refs after the game. I hope they did an incident report.
If that is the case then I stand corrected.
Here are the player's comments per the Dallas Morning news sports blog:
Gray was flagged for two unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. The first call involved him making a throat-slashing gesture after a touchdown. Gray said he was signaling to fans in celebration, not taunting the opponents.
The second penalty was for high-stepping into the end zone en route to a third-quarter touchdown. The play was called back. After that flag, Gray's backup, Caleb Frysinger, scored three plays later to give Aledo a 31-0 lead.
"I'm glad for our team," he said. "I'm glad we won. I'm not all about myself. I apologized for it, getting kicked out of the game. They made some terrible calls. But that's what you have to live with."
And here are his comments via his twitter page @jgray32:
Uil sent me a punishment. Said I had to run for three days. Flags where for changing my style of run and making a hand sign. $Winning$
and
@MrsHarris_AHS Haha yeah. That ref was just looking to through someone out from Aledo. It's all good though
I guess it should not surprise us that a high school football player has a following in Twitter, and now uses it to criticize officials.
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The announcers clearly say "he has done that all year", in re-guards to the altered stride into the EZ. He has scored 200 TDs so that means allot of opportunities for a USL. Somehow I don't think that is accurate, but still interesting.
From what I can find it's not accurate. He's apparently scored somewhere around 25 TDs this year. Nevertheless, that's 25 opportunities to do just what he did in this game. Let's just assume for a moment that he did it ALL 25 times. And assume that he NEVER got flagged for doing it. I think it's right to call this but how is the kid supposed to know? Especially when he has a father that verbally accosts the refs after the game. The father seems to be willing to teach the kid that he can do whatever he wants.
One would think he would have learned after the first call was made in this game but apparently the learning curve is a bit steep. Does anybody know, was the first call a live ball foul also? Or did he "throat slash" after scoring? And does anybody know in what company a "throat slash" is something to celebrate?
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I am not signalling TD if I have a catch by the WR and I threw and OPI on the play. I know the result of the play is not a TD.
Is this standard practice? I thought I remembered either a change or clarification that the TD should be signalled regardless of whether a possible penalty enforcement will change the result of the play. I say possible because I can think of a situation where the defense may decline OPI and let the touchdown stand in order to get possession of the ball (near the end of the game). The result of the play would be a touchdown.
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Has been discussed here and elsewhere before. I don't recall there ever being a uniformly accepted solution. I am signalling even if I know there is a foul that will likely cause the TD not to be awarded
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From what I can find it's not accurate. He's apparently scored somewhere around 25 TDs this year. Nevertheless, that's 25 opportunities to do just what he did in this game. Let's just assume for a moment that he did it ALL 25 times. And assume that he NEVER got flagged for doing it. I think it's right to call this but how is the kid supposed to know? Especially when he has a father that verbally accosts the refs after the game. The father seems to be willing to teach the kid that he can do whatever he wants.
One would think he would have learned after the first call was made in this game but apparently the learning curve is a bit steep. Does anybody know, was the first call a live ball foul also? Or did he "throat slash" after scoring? And does anybody know in what company a "throat slash" is something to celebrate?
Point of Information: I think he has scored 59 TD this year (the one that got called back and got him ejected would have broken his own single season TD record #60. He will have to wait until next week).
Also, the first one was a dead ball foul. The motion was made after the TD was scored.
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Point of Information: I think he has scored 59 TD this year (the one that got called back and got him ejected would have broken his own single season TD record #60. He will have to wait until next week).
Also, the first one was a dead ball foul. The motion was made after the TD was scored.
OK, sorry 59 TDs (amazing how bad the info on the internet can be at times).
So, if he did score 59 times. Even if he only performed some unsportsmanlike act 25% of the time. That means he did it 15 times. What if he was NEVER flagged for it? I don't work Aledo in the season but if he was never called for it, he learned that it's ok. Now, when the rules are properly enforced, he's ejected. Given that he learned during the season that acting a fool is allowed, should he be ejected in a playoff game? And if he did do it 15 times during the season, why wasn't he ever called for it?
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When I said 200 I was referring to his HS career, sorry wasn't clear on that. But he has had experience scoring TDs. Should of know better you would think.
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2011: 59
2010: 59
2009: 50
2008: 15
183 for his HS career
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I was the white hat for this game, Aledo vs Stephenville, Region 1 Quarterfinal. I will set the record straight for everyone. On the 2nd play from scrimmage, Gray runs 75 yards for a touchdown. Nothing excessive with his teammates in the endzone UNTIL he turns towards the stands and TV camera and does the "throat slash". Flag was thrown, score counted and penalty enforced on succeeding kickoff per choice of offended team.
3rd Quarter, 3:31, Gray runs a play to his right from about 33 yards out. At about the 12 yard line or so, he begins high stepping, untouched into the endzone. Flagged again, this time for his 2nd UNS. What most don't know who weren't watching the game on TV is the Aledo coach, who is a very stand up guy, grabs Gray coming back from the endzone and there is a not so cordial exchange between them, but the coach yells at him that the touchdown is being called back. It then went really nuts when I announced that it was the second UNS on #32 and he was ejected.
We were beat up pretty bad by the TV announcers and some of the press, but WE GOT IT RIGHT! We would do it again the same way if the situation warranted itself. We didn't eject #32, he ejected himself when he committed the 2 UNS fouls. We just enforced the rule as written. He is a senior who has a big following. I cant believe that he doesn't know that him committing 2 UNS fouls in one game would cause him to be sent to the sideline, but who knows. As far as his father accosting us, I wouldn't go that far. He was waiting on the other side of the fence at the top of the ramp and yelled several choice things at us. He was immediately removed by staff and the police.
It was raining throughout the game, heck, my umpire and I are still pouring water out of our shoes, but it was an experience to remember.
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Great job, back judge. From everything ive read and sedn,i totally agree with yalls call.
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I was the white hat for this game, Aledo vs Stephenville, Region 1 Quarterfinal. I will set the record straight for everyone. On the 2nd play from scrimmage, Gray runs 75 yards for a touchdown. Nothing excessive with his teammates in the endzone UNTIL he turns towards the stands and TV camera and does the "throat slash". Flag was thrown, score counted and penalty enforced on succeeding kickoff per choice of offended team.
3rd Quarter, 3:31, Gray runs a play to his right from about 33 yards out. At about the 12 yard line or so, he begins high stepping, untouched into the endzone. Flagged again, this time for his 2nd UNS. What most don't know who weren't watching the game on TV is the Aledo coach, who is a very stand up guy, grabs Gray coming back from the endzone and there is a not so cordial exchange between them, but the coach yells at him that the touchdown is being called back. It then went really nuts when I announced that it was the second UNS on #32 and he was ejected.
We were beat up pretty bad by the TV announcers and some of the press, but WE GOT IT RIGHT! We would do it again the same way if the situation warranted itself. We didn't eject #32, he ejected himself when he committed the 2 UNS fouls. We just enforced the rule as written. He is a senior who has a big following. I cant believe that he doesn't know that him committing 2 UNS fouls in one game would cause him to be sent to the sideline, but who knows. As far as his father accosting us, I wouldn't go that far. He was waiting on the other side of the fence at the top of the ramp and yelled several choice things at us. He was immediately removed by staff and the police.
It was raining throughout the game, heck, my umpire and I are still pouring water out of our shoes, but it was an experience to remember.
Sounds like everything was done correctly. You'll need to change your screen name though (Ref85?)
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I think I will keep the screen name....thats the position I worked for 23 years before moving to white hat....LOL
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:bOW I'm very proud of my fellow Ft Worth officials for having the balls to make calls that they know will be wildly unpopular. :thumbup The S especially in this case. As I watched the runner break stride and hi step into the EZ from my EZ perspective, I knew that HE knew what he had to do ^flag and what the ramifications of that flag would be. Kudos for him for having the cojones to throw on it probably jeopardizing his play off possibilities for the rest Of the year. So instead of the kid being punished for his actions the official is penalized for doing what the kid made him do. Until we stop letting the coaches control the process in TX, that's just the way it's going to be. tiphat:
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Great job, back judge. From everything ive read and sedn,i totally agree with yalls call.
AGREE COMPLETELY! Looks like y'all did an awesome job.
Glad the coach got after him. Looked like the coach was a little upset when he found out the kid was sitting for the rest of the game. Maybe, just maybe the kid learned something (sadly, with a father like that, it seems doubtful).
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Our job isn't to do what fans or coaches want, or think is right. Our job is to do what we know *is* right.
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Job well done to you and your crew backjudge.
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Point of Information: I think he has scored 59 TD this year (the one that got called back and got him ejected would have broken his own single season TD record #60. He will have to wait until next week).
Texas doesn't have a rule that you have to sit on the bench for a subsequent game after an ejection?
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Texas doesn't have a rule that you have to sit on the bench for a subsequent game after an ejection?
From the Texas exceptions to NCAA rules:
37. 9-2-2-d-pen
PENALTY—Disqualification for the remainder of the game and the team’s next game [S27 and S47].
Administer as a deadball foul; penalty enforced at the succeeding spot, and Team B fouls do not require a
first down. Team timeout.
VIOLATION—Rules 3-3-6 and 3-4-2-b [S23, S3 or S21]. If the disqualification occurs during the last
game of a season, players with eligibility remaining will serve the next-game disqualification during the
first game of the next season for which they are eligible.
EXCEPTION: 9-2-2-d-pen For UIL games, disqualification is for remainder of game only. Local school districts
and/or UIL District Committees may apply additional disciplinary action.
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this video includes the throat slash although it is not shown long
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZOgWjSagj0&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZOgWjSagj0&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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From the Texas exceptions to NCAA rules:
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And to be clear...this exception is ONLY for the fighting rule. Texas follows the NCAA rule on uns conduct ejections which does NOT require subsequent game punishment for uns conduct DQs
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Mr. Gray will be able to play this week in their playoff game vs Corsicana, TX. The TV producers called a rep from the UIL during our game and informed them of the ejection and was told by them that because it was only for UNS, the sit out for the following week would not apply. Glad they were on top of that!!!
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We didn't eject #32, he ejected himself when he committed the 2 UNS fouls.
Nice mic work. I am wondering if we use the terminology of "by rule, #32 has ejected himself from the game" it would put the criticism on the player rather than us.
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Nice mic work. I am wondering if we use the terminology of "by rule, #32 has ejected himself from the game" it would put the criticism on the player rather than us.
Unfortunately, I dont think the common fan would recognize the difference. They would just see player is ejected and think the refs decided to throw him out.
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And to be clear...this exception is ONLY for the fighting rule. Texas follows the NCAA rule on uns conduct ejections which does NOT require subsequent game punishment for uns conduct DQs
Thank you for the clarification. I will one day learn to be more specific and more on target.
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Nice mic work. I am wondering if we use the terminology of "by rule, #32 has ejected himself from the game" it would put the criticism on the player rather than us.
We already have an example from this season of a better way to announce this. remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7YbDMJQnGI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7YbDMJQnGI)
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We already have an example from this season of a better way to announce this. remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7YbDMJQnGI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7YbDMJQnGI)
Ejected is a poor term to begin with. Rather, use "disqualified."
"#32 has commited two unpsortsmanlike conduct fouls; by rule, he is disqualifed for the remainder of the game."
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Ejected is a poor term to begin with. Rather, use "disqualified."
"#32 has commited two unpsortsmanlike conduct fouls; by rule, he is disqualifed for the remainder of the game."
I prefer to use EXILED.
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I prefer to use EXILED.
#32 has committed 2 unsportsmanlike acts, he has exiled himself from the playing field for the remainder of the game.
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I prefer to use EXILED.
Excommunicated.
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Can we work in the "Whack! Get out!" terminology?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EogzHNEiCWU
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Let's make it visceral so it has some emotional sense to it
"#32 has castrated his team and circumcised himself from the remainder of the game"
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Can't tell for sure, but look like FJ threw the penalty. If so, should he have signaled touchdown since he knew it wouldn't count?
I agree with other commenters that there is no firm consensus. The most recent guidance I was given was at the last clinic I attended: If it's your flag and you know the touchdown (or FG, TB, safety as the case may be) is being nullified, simply kill the clock; if it's not your flag, then signal the result of the play even if you know it's being nullified.
I'd have to check my notes to remember who the speaker was, though.
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I agree with other commenters that there is no firm consensus. The most recent guidance I was given was at the last clinic I attended: If it's your flag and you know the touchdown (or FG, TB, safety as the case may be) is being nullified, simply kill the clock; if it's not your flag, then signal the result of the play even if you know it's being nullified.
I'd have to check my notes to remember who the speaker was, though.
That is what I was thinking the rule of thumb is.
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Other conferences are taught that the result of the play is a TD, so signal the TD, even if you think your flag is going to bring it back. There is always the possibility that the penalty might be declined or waved off.
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Let's make it visceral so it has some emotional sense to it
"#32 has castrated his team and circumcised himself from the remainder of the game"
I know of one who wasn't thinking too clearly when he announced # so-and-so has been ejaculated from the game.
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As for the RB 'doing it all year' as the 'tator said - on youtube on the side, one of the links was his highlight reel - shows at least 20 TD runs, no high stepping in any of them.
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Good point James. I'd wondered about that also.
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I was the white hat for this game, Aledo vs Stephenville, Region 1 Quarterfinal. I will set the record straight for everyone. On the 2nd play from scrimmage, Gray runs 75 yards for a touchdown. Nothing excessive with his teammates in the endzone UNTIL he turns towards the stands and TV camera and does the "throat slash". Flag was thrown, score counted and penalty enforced on succeeding kickoff per choice of offended team.
3rd Quarter, 3:31, Gray runs a play to his right from about 33 yards out. At about the 12 yard line or so, he begins high stepping, untouched into the endzone. Flagged again, this time for his 2nd UNS. What most don't know who weren't watching the game on TV is the Aledo coach, who is a very stand up guy, grabs Gray coming back from the endzone and there is a not so cordial exchange between them, but the coach yells at him that the touchdown is being called back. It then went really nuts when I announced that it was the second UNS on #32 and he was ejected.
We were beat up pretty bad by the TV announcers and some of the press, but WE GOT IT RIGHT! We would do it again the same way if the situation warranted itself. We didn't eject #32, he ejected himself when he committed the 2 UNS fouls. We just enforced the rule as written. He is a senior who has a big following. I cant believe that he doesn't know that him committing 2 UNS fouls in one game would cause him to be sent to the sideline, but who knows. As far as his father accosting us, I wouldn't go that far. He was waiting on the other side of the fence at the top of the ramp and yelled several choice things at us. He was immediately removed by staff and the police.
After Gray's first USC foul, did either you or another member of the crew inform his head coach that a second USC foul would earn Gray an early shower? Although it is not required, the notice is good PR &preventive officiating. It also provides an opportunity for the HC to rein him.
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Yes, the coach was told.