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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: GoodScout on December 10, 2011, 12:56:52 PM
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Saw an interesting 4th down play in the GHSA AAAA championship game last night. Was watching live online so the resolution wasn't great and there was no rewinding available, so I'm going by what I saw on a 15-inch screen. My old association was working the game, and they did an awesome job.
The play: 4th and 5 and A lines up to go for it, since one of their punts was blocked earlier in the game. From what I could tell, the linemen never went down on one hand. A holds the formation for a second and then suddenly with a call from the QB (not under center) all 11 players instantly break and run for the sideline. Simultaneously, 11 new players rush on from the sideline and assume a new formation over the ball, with a kicker back deep. Before B has time to adjust, they set for one second, snap the ball and kick.
From what I could see,
- No B player was fooled and jumped into the neutral zone
- The ball wasn't snapped until all of the initial 11 were off the field (although in the scramble I felt pity for the crew who was trying to count. It appeared they were as surprised as i was).
What I don't know is:
- Did the crew get advised about this trick play in the pre game meeting with the R & U? I know the R and know for a fact he would have asked the question.
- Did the center put his hand on the ball? I assume not, because I also know the U and know he would have blown that dead the second the hand came off.
Needless to say, it raised a lot of questions. No false start was called, nor for that matter do I think it should have been. Still...
Since the offense was motionless for more than a second, were they set? Did the entire offense immediately leaping out of their formation and breaking for the sideline simulate the snap? Can you simulate the snap if the center hasn't yet put his hands on the ball?
What would you have done if a defender, seeing the entire offense surge to the right, fired off across the NZ and made contact with a player? False start? Encroachment?
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Why am I thinking that the team that tried to pull this, lost the game?
NF: 7-1-7 advises, "After the ball is marked RFP, and before the snap begins, no false start shall be made by any A player." 7-1-7 a and b, both seem somewhat problematic, so to answer your question about B encroaching in response to this sudden movement by A, would be a judgment call, but certainly sounds like a text book false start (NF: 7-1-8).
Sounds like B, at least in this case, was comfortable continuing play with the 11 players they had in the game, and may have been aware of this ploy.
Glad to hear the field officiating crew, "did an awesome job" I suspect that didn't surprise anyone.
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I think these questions are specific to fed rules and should be moved to that section
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GoodScout, remember in Federation B doesn't get time to adjust. Assuming A didn't simulate action, there likely is no foul, although it does raise the question of using a substitution to deceive. Without video, it's really impossible to make that determination.
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This same play happened twice in the playoff game between Buford and Carver. Buford sent all 11 players off the field. The center did not have his hands on the ball nor were any linemen in a three point stance. However, a B player crossed the neutral zone and encroachment was called. When it happened, I felt that it should have been a false start simply because the intention was to draw the defense across the neutral zone and get a cheap 5 yards. This is a play that I intend to discuss during our summer camps with the GHSA. By the way, the crew was told about the play during the pregame meeting with the coach. That does not make it legal, but that was the reason I was given.
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NCAA has this easy. The umpire will go over the ball and prevent team A from snapping the ball until team B has had time to respond. If the play clock expires, delay of game against team A. If team A snaps the ball before the umpire leaves, again delay on team A.
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If team A snaps the ball before the umpire leaves, again delay on team A.
Kalle, I don't think you can find rule support for a delay foul on A unless the play clock expires. AR 3-2-5-V gives the procedure for the "redo" if Team A manages to snap the ball before the U can prevent the snap. The AR clearly states "no foul." We had to do that once this season. And had a couple of other instances when A attempted to catch B at a disadvantage, but our U was able to prevent the snap, then back out, and the ball was snapped legally.
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Kalle, I don't think you can find rule support for a delay foul on A unless the play clock expires.
What I originally meant was that if team A snaps the ball after the umpire gets there. But, after actually reading the rule, I think it is written so that even then all you can do is shut the play down and redo.