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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: slasc on May 21, 2012, 01:03:37 AM
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Hello,
This situation happened on my last game:
During the last two minutes of the first half, team A plays a rush offense. Important: team A has two timeout left.
After a play, several players of team A say loudly that they should spike the ball to stop the clock. Next down, they play a successfull pass play and are awarding a first down. Again, several players say clearly that they should spike the ball. The QB feint the spike and throw a successfull pass for a TD. Team B did not react, thinking that they will spike...
I flagged the QB for unfair tactic, because for me, team A has prepared this special play to deceive opponents.
What do you think?
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I have a feeling we've discussed this before. IMO no foul, play on. This is the same situation if the QB yells an audible "sweep right" and team A then runs something completely different.
This is also why I never ever say anything to the team B if team A tells me they are going to take a knee.
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We had one a couple of months ago where the offense said they were going to take a knee, we told the defense that they were taking a knee and not to hit anyone... then the offense ran a play. They got flagged, I think it was for USC but can't remember for definite.
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We had one a couple of months ago where the offense said they were going to take a knee, we told the defense that they were taking a knee and not to hit anyone... then the offense ran a play. They got flagged, I think it was for USC but can't remember for definite.
Why do you tell the defense anything? Stay out of it! If the offense wants to take a knee, then the line had better block, and the defense had better stop when the QB's knee hits the ground.
Be quick on the whistle, but don't start coaching players. Suppose the offense says they are taking a knee, you tell the defense not to hit anyone, and the QB drops the snap? You just took away a chance from the defense.
In NCAA rules, when a player SIMULATES putting his knee on the ground, then the ball is dead, as if he had (4-1-3-o). But SAYING you are going to take a knee, or spike the ball is nothing, and the official best stay out of the coaching business.
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Why do you tell the defense anything?
I have no idea... It's what I have been shown/told to do and it is what I have always done, I don't know the reasoning for why we do it that way.
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I call it preventive officiating. A QB isn't going to take a knee unless everyone in the stadium knows the game (or half) is over. That said, if a QB tells me he is taking a knee and doesn't, he's entering into waters where he doesn't want to fish.
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I call it preventive officiating. A QB isn't going to take a knee unless everyone in the stadium knows the game (or half) is over. That said, if a QB tells me he is taking a knee and doesn't, he's entering into waters where he doesn't want to fish.
As with most things, it is situational. I have no problem telling the defense the QB is taking a knee if the QB or Coach tell me he is taking a knee so I can protect the player. And, if the QB runs a play, I will flag an UNC. But, there is a big difference with the original question of a team saying they will spike the ball and then run a play. As long as you do not involve the official in your play call, there is nothing unfair about it. So, to the original question -- this is not a foul. They did not use any equipment or anything else in an unfair manner. Faked spiked ball is not different than a good play fake. Defense needs to watch the ball.
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As with most things, it is situational. I have no problem telling the defense the QB is taking a knee if the QB or Coach tell me he is taking a knee so I can protect the player. And, if the QB runs a play, I will flag an UNC. But, there is a big difference with the original question of a team saying they will spike the ball and then run a play. As long as you do not involve the official in your play call, there is nothing unfair about it. So, to the original question -- this is not a foul. They did not use any equipment or anything else in an unfair manner. Faked spiked ball is not different than a good play fake. Defense needs to watch the ball.
There is NO rule support for calling UNC for a QB lying to you. Telling the defense to stop playing isn't "preventive officiating", it's coaching, or worse, dictating the outcome. If a QB tells you he is taking a knee, why not just end the game? That's what you are doing anyway.
If the QB tells you he is taking a knee, remind him it's still a live ball until he does. If you feel you have to tell the defense something (and you really don't), you say, "Let's play smart IF they take a knee."
Team A is up by 4 with 50 seconds to play. They are on their own 5 yard line, B has no time outs. QB tells you he is taking a knee, you tell the defense, "He's taking a knee, lay off." QB fumbles the snap. You have just told the defense to lay off, effectively keeping them from recovering the fumble which could change the outcome of the game.
Let the game come to you, call the game you see, and quit coaching! There isn't another play in football where you would tell the offense or defense how to play. Why do it here?
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...Telling the defense to stop playing isn't "preventive officiating", it's coaching, or worse, dictating the outcome. If a QB tells you he is taking a knee, why not just end the game?...
If the QB tells you he is taking a knee, remind him it's still a live ball until he does. If you feel you have to tell the defense something (and you really don't), you say, "Let's play smart IF they take a knee."
Team A is up by 4 with 50 seconds to play. They are on their own 5 yard line, B has no time outs. QB tells you he is taking a knee, you tell the defense, "He's taking a knee, lay off." QB fumbles the snap. You have just told the defense to lay off, effectively keeping them from recovering the fumble which could change the outcome of the game.
Let the game come to you, call the game you see, and quit coaching! There isn't another play in football where you would tell the offense or defense how to play. Why do it here?
Nobody said a word about telling the defense to stop playing, and I believe we'd be hard pressed to find a rule to support just "ending the game" as you suggest, either. I think we can all agree what is being proposed is to tell the defense EXACTLY what you wrote: "Play smart IF he takes a knee." I know in similar situations I have used the words "Don't do anything stupid."
There are some coaches who want the QB protected at that point of the game. If you don't necessarily fall in that category, so be it; I suppose there is nothing wrong with that. I will also add while I agree, in principle, with the play situation you cite, I'd prefer common sense to prevail when everyone in the stadium knows the game has been decided and is over. We've let the game come to us, calling the one we see. Now if coaches would just quit officiating! ;)
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When working R and the situation dictates taking a knee, I tell the QB to go straight down and don't dance around. If they are a few scores up I don't see a problem telling the defense they are taking a knee. However I generally let my U handle the defense.
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If it's so important for the defense to know that the QB is taking a knee, let HIM tell the defense that's what he's doing.
As for our team, we never tell the officials if we are taking a knee. We assume they can figure it out themselves, and will do their job when it happens.
Guess we have smarter officials. ;)
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If it's so important for the defense to know that the QB is taking a knee, let HIM tell the defense that's what he's doing.
As for our team, we never tell the officials if we are taking a knee. We assume they can figure it out themselves, and will do their job when it happens.
Guess we have smarter officials. ;)
Since we have the best quarterbacks in the country, we try not to get them hurt. Coaches tell you they are taking a knee for the specific purpose of protecting the player. A heads up to the defense to let up is not inappropriate in a blow out game.
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I'm with Atlanta Blue here. I don't say anything to either team. I'll give the Team A QB protection immediately when he puts his knee down. Until then, both he and Team B are free to do anything the rules alow them to do including rushing through the line in an attemp to get the ball or tackle the QB. Both teams should be well aware of what they can and can't do within the rules. Calling a USC on a QB that verbalizes he is taking a knee and then decides to "audible" to something else is basically making up the rules as you go. Nothing illegal about a QB doing that. Bush league? Perhaps. Illegal? No.
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I used to notify everyone once the QB told me they were taking a knee but over the years with QB's doing things like bobbling the snap or taking three or four steps backwards before they felt pressure then going down, I now just say "OK" to the QB if he says anything to me and work it as normal. That said, if it has been a particularly chippy game to that point, I may say something to the effect of "Play it smart" to no one in particular as the offense comes up to the ball.
The offense is still snapping it and it's still a football play. If any fouls occur, we'll call 'em.
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FWIW, I agree it's never bad to say things like, 'let's be smart here, guys'. IF it's late, I usually ask the QB (if I have time) if he's taking a knee. If yes, I might say, 'Don't be silly. Kneel and RUN to me with the ball.' He tends to get the idea. I usually find that prevents him from 'waiting until someone's close' and prevents the defense from trying something late.
Not always, but usually. ;D
While we might come in a bit to 'show our presence', I try not to get near the pile lest I have a biggun' role up on me. Even my umpire tends to stay clear.
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During the last two minutes of the first half, team A plays a rush offense. Important: team A has two timeout left.
After a play, several players of team A say loudly that they should spike the ball to stop the clock. Next down, they play a successfull pass play and are awarding a first down. Again, several players say clearly that they should spike the ball. The QB feint the spike and throw a successfull pass for a TD. Team B did not react, thinking that they will spike...
I flagged the QB for unfair tactic, because for me, team A has prepared this special play to deceive opponents.
What do you think?
Deception is a big part of football.
The rule book lists a variety of improper deceptions - ball carrier simulating placing knee on the ground (4-1-3-o), planned loose ball (7-1-7), hiding the ball in an improper fashion (9-2-2-a), using simulated replacements or a tactic associated with the substitution process to confuse opponents (9-2-2-b) and using equipment to confuse (9-2-2-c).
I don't see how your play fits into any of those no-nos. What's not illegal is legal.
As for announcing "the QB is taking a knee" ...
I think it could be used in high school subvarsity and below. At the HS varsity, saying "be smart" or "lay off the QB if he takes a knee" is OK. At the college level, say nothing.
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...At the college level, say nothing.
...and get ready for the post-game fight when the QB gets leveled.
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...and get ready for the post-game fight when the QB gets leveled.
If a game is that hot, then it doesn't really matter what the officials say to the team B before the snap. They will come in and commit a late hit anyway.
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...and get ready for the post-game fight when the QB gets leveled.
What do we care - postgame? Not our problem. If he gets leveled illegally before the game ends, we'll handle it. If he gets leveled after the last dead-ball with 0:00 on the clock, it ain't our problem.
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...and get ready for the post-game fight when the QB gets leveled.
.... then get out your pencil & index card to record players' numbers and illegal acts.
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What do we care - postgame? Not our problem. If he gets leveled illegally before the game ends, we'll handle it. If he gets leveled after the last dead-ball with 0:00 on the clock, it ain't our problem.
I thought the officials' jurisdiction ends when the referee declares the score final, not when the clock reads 0:00?
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If the QB says he is taking a knee and then doesn't it is highly likely there would be an inadvertant whistle.
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I thought the officials' jurisdiction ends when the referee declares the score final, not when the clock reads 0:00?
Yes, but what are you going to do if time has expired when what would be a foul during the game occurs? You have no where to enforce a penalty. Game over and the score is final when the clock reads 0:00. Our jurisdiction is over, and any physical interaction between two people at that point is a criminal, civil, or contest administration issue.
The only time there might be a delay between time expiring and declaring the score final is if the team behind in score might still have some opportunity to have a another down played due to a live-ball foul, or due to a review by the RO. But, in a 'taking a knee' scenario, neither of those situations are likely to happen. Even if the QB fakes taking a knee, any live-ball foul is 99% likely to be by team B, and will be declined - game over. There is a little more likelihood of a replay review, but, unless changing the ruling on the field would change the outcome of the game, the RO would not get involved - game over.
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OK, QB takes a knee, clock hits 0:00, and B98 files through th block and "flagrantly fouls" the QB. His actions were severe enough that it would have warranted an ejection had it happened earlier.
Are you telling me that doesn't get into your post game report to the conference supervisor?
Sure, you can't penalize it, we all understand that. But it still happened under your jurisdiction. I'm guessing you had better be reporting it.
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OK, QB takes a knee, clock hits 0:00, and B98 files through th block and "flagrantly fouls" the QB. His actions were severe enough that it would have warranted an ejection had it happened earlier.
Are you telling me that doesn't get into your post game report to the conference supervisor?
Sure, you can't penalize it, we all understand that. But it still happened under your jurisdiction. I'm guessing you had better be reporting it.
I didn't say anything about not reporting it to anybody. In the absence of something that might extend the game, the game is over, and the score was final when the clock hit 0:00. By rule, our jurisdiction and responsibility ended when the score was declared final. So B98's action was NOT under our jurisdiction. As we're getting off the field, we'll record B98's number, and report the incident to higher authorities. If a fight breaks out, we're not hanging around to break it up, record numbers or anything else. That ain't our job. Institutional administrators are responsible for the conduct of their personnel. League/conference executives can review video, interview participants - whatever they need to do to impose any punishments. We're out of it. Let someone else be the baby sitters.
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the game is over, and the score was final when the clock hit 0:00. By rule, our jurisdiction and responsibility ended when the score was declared final.
Unless the referee holds the ball over his head (S14), then by rule, he hasn't declared it final! (11-1)
And the next D1 referee I see hold the ball over his head following the last play of the game might well be the first.
My point is that while your formal "jurisdiction" ends when the score is declared final, from a practical standpoint, you're "on duty" until you are off the field. Let some player or coach accost you while you are running off the field and see if you still jurisdiction.
NCAA Baseball formalized this position in the last rule change:
Umpire jurisdiction in regard to personal confrontations and unsportsmanlike
conduct directed toward them begins when the umpires enter the game site
and ends when the umpires have left the game site.
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Unless the referee holds the ball over his head (S14), then by rule, he hasn't declared it final! (11-1)
And the next D1 referee I see hold the ball over his head following the last play of the game might well be the first.
My point is that while your formal "jurisdiction" ends when the score is declared final, from a practical standpoint, you're "on duty" until you are off the field. Let some player or coach accost you while you are running off the field and see if you still jurisdiction.
NCAA Baseball formalized this position in the last rule change:
Umpire jurisdiction in regard to personal confrontations and unsportsmanlike
conduct directed toward them begins when the umpires enter the game site
and ends when the umpires have left the game site.
A) This ain't baseball.
B) Unless he couldn't get a ball expediently, every FBS R I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot - has held the ball overhead at the end of the game. Maybe you've never seen it, but don't assume your experience matches everyone else on the planet.
C) If somebody acosts us as we are getting off the field, that's somebody else's jurisdiction. We can not impose any penalty. If we can't impose any penalty, then we have no jurisdiction. We report the incident to the proper authority, be it an institutional administrator, a league/conference executive, or a criminal justice authority, and they deal with it.
D) Failure or inability to use Signal 14 doesn't mean the score has not been declared final. I have seen numerous games where the R could not get a ball expediently after the last dead ball, and he just left the field. Are you telling me all those scores are not final? Bovine scatology. We damned sure ain't waitin' around for the kids to kiss and make up.
E) If you do hang around, what are you gonna do? You can't penalize anybody. Are you gonna try to break up a fight? Pretty stupid, on several levels. If you don't get hurt, you run a huge risk of doing something for which you will lose in a law suit. When the day comes that we can fine or suspend somebody for post-game actions, then OK, I'll do my duty, stick around until the players have left the field, and then go. But that day ain't here, and we damned sure ain't gettin' paid for that.
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Somebody has their feathers ruffled... :sTiR:
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Unless he couldn't get a ball expediently, every FBS R I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot - has held the ball overhead at the end of the game. Maybe you've never seen it, but don't assume your experience matches everyone else on the planet.
No, but my experience in this area surpasses most individual on the planet. Watching for things such as this is part of what I get paid for, every week of the season. It simply doesn't happen. Some, but not all, R's will ANNOUNCE the game is over, particularly if something screwy happened on the last play. But they do it without the S14 signal.
D) Failure or inability to use Signal 14 doesn't mean the score has not been declared final. I have seen numerous games where the R could not get a ball expediently after the last dead ball, and he just left the field. Are you telling me all those scores are not final?
Of course they are, and that's my point. There is what the rule book SAYS, and practicality. And from a PRACTICAL standpoint, your jurisdiction doesn't end when the clock strikes 0:00. If you are still on the field, you're still in charge.