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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: JDM on July 19, 2012, 08:01:15 AM
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As mentioned, there seem to be several ambiguous questions on the test. To wit:
A85 is standing at the A-33 when the ball is marked ready for play on the second half kickoff. The ball is subsequently kicked into the end zone where a touchback is declared.
A) Flag thrown when ball marked ready; ball placed at the 25 yd line 1 & 10
B) Flag thrown when ball is kicked; ball placed at the 30 yd line 1 & 10
C) Flag is thrown when the ball marked ready; ball will be re-kicked from the 30 yd line
D) A or C is correct
Answer, per test result is B.
Comments?
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B was my answer. It is not actually a foul until the ball is kicked even though the restriction starts at the RFP. Team A or B could still call a timeout before the ball becomes live.
It is a foul by Team A during a kick play so tack on is an option and touchbacks during free kicks are now placed at the B-25.
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As did I, although it's incorrect per UIL rule exception.
It's the best "correct" incorrect answer.
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What do you believe is incorrect about B? That they didn't specify the B-30? That's implied I'd say.
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F) Team A rekick @ A35.
B is an option, but it is not the ONLY option and like mentioned and although implied when there are two 30 yardlines and they should say where.
That is the problem with these tests, they get multiple writers of questions, there is very little oversight or proofing of the questions before they are released, and many times they try to be "tricky" just to see if they can confuse with ambiguous/incomplete questions/answers.
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As did I, although it's incorrect per UIL rule exception.
It's the best "correct" incorrect answer.
What exception makes this incorrect?
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F) Team A rekick @ A35.
B is an option, but it is not the ONLY option and like mentioned and although implied when there are two 30 yardlines and they should say where.
That is the problem with these tests, they get multiple writers of questions, there is very little oversight or proofing of the questions before they are released, and many times they try to be "tricky" just to see if they can confuse with ambiguous/incomplete questions/answers.
Don't overthink it. You were only given certain options to choose from. Nobody said, nor does the question imply, that there are no other options possible. But for the test you were given these options. Pick the one(s) that are correct and quit worrying about what might also have been done in that scenario.
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I asked TXMike about this one. The rule is just written very badly. I see an edit coming next year, I hope.
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Is there anyone who does not know the intent of the rule change? Cause if you don't and you try to officiate it this "by the letter of the law", you are going to screw the pooch.
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I asked TXMike about this one. The rule is just written very badly. I see an edit coming next year, I hope.
The NCAA rule? I don't see anything ambiguous or poor about the NCAA rule language. Or, are you talking about a UIL exception (I don't know about those)?
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Read very technically you might think the rule made the offense a dead ball foul.
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Read very technically you might think the rule made the offense a dead ball foul.
Even still, you'd have to make some assumptions to get to that point. Such as that this fould would be different than how offside or a formation foul during a free kick is treated now.
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I agree. When you see it actually in the rulebook and with the penalty language that specifically says it is a live ball foul there should be no doubt.
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What exception makes this incorrect?
The ball is still placed at the 20 yard line after a touchback per UIL rule. NCAA is the 25 yard line.
Flag after the ball is kicked, then either:
1. Rekick from the A35 if Team B chooses to assess the penalty from the previous spot.
2. Team B's ball at the B25 if they choose to assess the penalty after a touchback.
After the ball has been made ready for play all players on the kicking team except the kicker must be no more than five yards behind their restraining line. If one player is more than five yards behind the restraining line and any other player kicks the ball, it is a foul.
PENALTY—Illegal Formation. Five yards from the previous spot and re-kick, or five yards from the spot where the dead ball belongs to the receiving team.
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The ball is still placed at the 20 yard line after a touchback per UIL rule. NCAA is the 25 yard line.
Sorry, that is not true.
Here are the current exceptions:
http://www.uiltexas.org/files/athletics/FB_UIL_Exceptions_2012-13.pdf
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The ball is still placed at the 20 yard line after a touchback per UIL rule. NCAA is the 25 yard line.
Where did you hear that?
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Sorry, that is not true.
Here are the current exceptions:
http://www.uiltexas.org/files/athletics/FB_UIL_Exceptions_2012-13.pdf
I stand corrected. I assumed the UIL took exception to that NCAA rule change. I'll get back to my plate of crow, now.
Flag after the ball is kicked, then either:
1. Rekick from the A35 if Team B chooses to assess the penalty from the previous spot.
2. Team B's ball at the B30 if they choose to assess the penalty after a touchback.
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Or B could take the ball at the 25 by declining penalty. Not a likely outcome but possible.
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After the ball has been made ready for play all players on the kicking team except the kicker must be no more than five yards behind their restraining line.
This is the statement that I think has to be cleaned up. Think about it, if any player is more than 5 yds behind their restraining line at the rfp, this says that is a penalty (other than the kicker). Intent or not the rule needs to be cleaned up if that's not the intent. Ambiguous? Yep. How does not officiating it this way prevent what was intended, the running start? A K player could be lined up 15 yds behind their restraining line, get a running start and be within a yard when the ball is kicked. How does the rule, as we are being told to interpret it, prevent that? Change the rule to be very precise in what needs to be a foul please.
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The actual language:
b. After the ball has been made ready for play all players on the kicking team except
the kicker must be no more than five yards behind their restraining line. A player
satisfies this rule when one foot is on or beyond the line five yards behind the
restraining line. If one player is more than five yards behind the restraining line and
any other player kicks the ball, it is a foul.
The last line makes it clear it is not a foul until the ball is kicked.
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A unique situation in that is not a foul until the ball is kicked. However Team A has no recourse to "reset or correct" the infraction, other than to call a timeout. This will also eliminate the "normal" kicker taking his long approach and a different player kicking it a different direction at the last minute.
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Team A "can make it right" simply by having the offender getting up in the box and stopping before the kicker kicks the ball.
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ok.. how do you infer any "set" aspect that from this...
Rule 6-1-2
b. After the ball has been made ready for play all players on the kicking team except the kicker must be no more than five yards behind their restraining line. A player satisfies this rule when one foot is on or beyond the line five yards behind the restraining line. If one player is more than five yards behind the restraining line and any other player kicks the ball, it is a foul.
is there a play situation or a bulletin that has specified the set aspect?
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The actual language:
b. After the ball has been made ready for play all players on the kicking team except
the kicker must be no more than five yards behind their restraining line. A player
satisfies this rule when one foot is on or beyond the line five yards behind the
restraining line. If one player is more than five yards behind the restraining line and
any other player kicks the ball, it is a foul.
The last line makes it clear it is not a foul until the ball is kicked.
Mike,
I think the point is, if this is a safety rule change (slow down collission speed) we as officials do nothing to prevent that if we allow a kicker to have a running start.
Best regards,
Brad
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I think we are mixing things up here. The kicker DOES get a running start IF he kicks. I am not saying the player who MAY BE the kicker gets a running start even if someone else kicks. The one who kicks is the only one who gets a running start.
As for the "set" aspect, I assume that was directed at my statement? The intent of the rule is to prevent teh running start. Just because a player is outside that "box" after the RFP, if he gets in the box and stops, he has lost any "running start" advantage and gains no advantage form having been outside the box after the RFP. That being said, his stop will have to be more than the "stop" we require of a lineman who is trying to become a back. This kicking team player needs to prove he has stopped in order to show he is not voiolating the intent of the rule. Common sense.
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I think we are mixing things up here. The kicker DOES get a running start IF he kicks. I am not saying the player who MAY BE the kicker gets a running start even if someone else kicks. The one who kicks is the only one who gets a running start.
As for the "set" aspect, I assume that was directed at my statement? The intent of the rule is to prevent teh running start. Just because a player is outside that "box" after the RFP, if he gets in the box and stops, he has lost any "running start" advantage and gains no advantage form having been outside the box after the RFP. That being said, his stop will have to be more than the "stop" we require of a lineman who is trying to become a back. This kicking team player needs to prove he has stopped in order to show he is not voiolating the intent of the rule. Common sense.
Common sense not withstanding, I don't believe the rule, as presently worded, offers an exception.
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Mike, I meant to say a member of the kicking team, not the actual kicker.
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Common sense not withstanding, I don't believe the rule, as presently worded, offers an exception.
You are not seriously saying you would flag this:
RFP is blown. Kid runs from his positon on left of the ball to position on the right and during that run he has both feet outside the box. Once he gets to the right side he stops (clearly inside the box) and gets into a 3 point stance . The kicker then begins his approach to the ball and kicks it off.
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No, I didn't say I would flag it. What I did say is your interpretation is not backed by the way the rule is written.
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And this is the first rule that we do not enforce as written ? ? ? ?