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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on July 26, 2012, 04:18:12 AM
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Team A brings 2 kicking tees out for a KO. 1 is placed on the 35 near the and one on the 35 near the right hash. After the RFP, "Kicker" A20 runs to the tee at the left hash where he had the ball placed and passes it across the field to A10 who catches and places the ball on the tee at the right hash. A8 then dribble kicks it off to B. Ball goes to the A-46 where a Team A player falls on it. Team A had 4 players on each side of the ball when kicked. RULING: ?
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On the assumption that anything not specifically prohibited is legal (isn't that how we got the forward pass?), I'd say your play is strange but legal and results in A 1st and 10 @ A46.
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Wouldn't it be illegal, under 1-4-7:
e. Any equipment that could confuse or deceive an opponent.
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That was my gut reaction also. But the more I looked at it the more I came to think that section only refers to items on a player's person.
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That was my gut reaction also. But the more I looked at it the more I came to think that section only refers to items on a player's person.
What led you to that conclusion? "Any equipment" seems pretty general.
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9-2-2-c No equipment may be used to confuse opponents. USC foul.
Recall the "Where's the tee play"? It goes something like this.
On fourth down, Team A lines up in FG formation. After a few seconds, the holder gets up and runs towards his sideline yelling, "Where's the tee? Throw the tee out". Somebody in the team area tosses the tee out onto the field of play. By this time, Team B has relaxed. Suddenly, the snapper snaps the ball to the kicker who runs for a first down.
Ruling: USC foul.
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Diablo, The play you describe would be illegal (UNS) whether or not a tee is used; it was decided long ago that communication with the bench to confuse an opponent was an unsportsmanlike act. In TexMike's play, I have trouble believing an opponent would be confused throughout the time it takes to receive a pass and place the ball on a tee. That having been said, as a former back judge (now a replay official as a result of bad knees and advanced age), I believe I would question the kicker as to why there were 2 tees on the field before I handed him the ball. This is certainly the sort of play the coach should have disclosed in the pre-game meeting when he was asked if he had any unusual plays.
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If the coach does bring it up in pregame, what are you going to tell him. If you look at the "equipment" rule, everything there is stuff that a player wears. If you go a bit further and look at "field equipment", it still does not address this. I agree with FL, the "where's the tee" play is designed to make B think the "snap is not imminent" which seems to be a key requirement for assessing the USC penalty.
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I think 1-2-9 would give rule support for not allowing a second tee on the field. No material or device shall be used to improve or degrade the playing surface or other conditions and give one player or team an advantage. (Exceptions: Rules 2-16-4-b and c)
The exceptions are the rules that allow a tee to be used for place kicks, either to lean the ball against or to elevate the ball from the ground. Only one tee is required to do this and it seems more than reasonable to infer that any tee that is on the field but unused is degrading the playing surface (at the very least it degrades the safety of field of play).
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I believe you can hang your hat on 9-2-2c a whole lot more than 1-2-9a.
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So what if they only take out 1 tee but then do not kick the ball from it but kick it off the ground?
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If they do not use the tee, they have violated 1-2-9-a just as much as if they used two tees. My point is that if the rule specifically cites another rule which details how a tee may be legally used as an exception then it logically follows that using a tee in any other manner is illegal.
Of course we could simply use a little common sense and just tell the coach or player that it makes the game more unsafe to have two tees on the field while the ball is alive - please remove one and if you don't plan to use either tee, remove that one as well.
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So then Mr Brilliant Coach tells you, "Well after my boy throws the ball over to the other side of the field he will toss the tee he had off to the sideline" before we get the ball kicked?
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So then Mr Brilliant Coach tells you, "Well after my boy throws the ball over to the other side of the field he will toss the tee he had off to the sideline" before we get the ball kicked?
I think that as long as the tee was between the 30 & 35 after the ready for play we are fine with that.
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But is the tee restricted or unrestricted at the snap? :D
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Would you let the snapper pick up the ball and throw it to a wide out at the opposite hash and let him snap it from there on a scrimmage down? Then why would you let a kicker do it?
Once the RFP is blown, the spot is set, and from there we will play. FED has a specific rule saying once the spot is declared, the ball can't be moved.
If you did allow it, what would prevent a team from starting the ball on one hash, and throwing a series of backward passes from one player to another to another to another, the last player drop kicking the ball and having it roll 10 yards (forget rollout punts, this is a true rugby kick!)?
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Once the RFP is blown, the spot is set, and from there we will play. FED has a specific rule saying once the spot is declared, the ball can't be moved.
Really? Find an NCAA rule, AR or play situations bulletin that prohibits it.
If you did allow it, what would prevent a team from starting the ball on one hash, and throwing a series of backward passes from one player to another to another to another, the last player drop kicking the ball and having it roll 10 yards (forget rollout punts, this is a true rugby kick!)?
The passes could be forward. The ball is dead until is it legally kicked. The passes would be 'nothing.' They have 25 seconds to do whatever they want. Carry, hand or pass the ball back and forth all they want. They just have to legally kick it before the play clock runs out. Yep, one of them could drop kick it, but they have to kick it from a point on the restraining line on a kickoff, or anywhere behind the restraining line on a free kick after a safety. Hmmm. (Kick after safety) His teammates all have to be behind the ball, but they can't be more than 5 yards behind their restraining line. So I guess that means it can be kicked anywhere between their two restraining lines, as long as all other players are behind the ball. Interesting.
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Easy...
Team A brings 2 kicking tees out for a KO. 1 is placed on the 35 near the and one on the 35 near the right hash. After the RFP, "Kicker" A20 runs to the tee at the left hash where he had the ball placed and passes it (STOP)
Play whistled dead 6-1-2
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Easy...
Play whistled dead 6-1-2
What in 6-1-2 prohibits this? All fouls in 6-1-2 are live ball fouls.
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Easy...
Play whistled dead 6-1-2
Are you equating "falling from the tee" with "taking it off the tee" ?? i don't see them as the same.
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All references to a kicking tee specifically say "a tee," "the tee," or "the kicking tee." With one exception -- something about the ball being "teed," which is descriptive. Anyway, these are singular, and the intent and spirit of the rule is to allow ONE tee. The other one shall be removed prior to any RFP and no foul is necessary unless they keep trying it, then you can start with a delay foul.
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I don't think any supervisor on Earth would chastise you for removing a second tee from the field.