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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: tx29 on December 21, 2012, 07:36:54 PM
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Gilmer spreads out with player(s) lined up outside the numbers before referee ready whistle. All players except one come to the center for possible OSK except one who stays at the sideline, then we get the ready whistle, it appears. I say this because the B was not set yet and I am pretty sure I then heard the R's ready. Defense squeezes to match the Gilmer squeeze, leaving wide player alone. K then kicks the ball to him, in the air, about 12 yards downfield. Beautifully executed but unfortunately illegal. ^flag6.1.2.e illegal formation, -5, re kick. I think they thought about it but couldn't pull the trigger. And those aren't ft worth chapter officials (98%positive on that one) "we have" officials from another chapter.
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Were you there or watching on TV On TV we could not tell when the RFP was blown. reagrdless, Team B saw all 11 and where they were. Justbecause they left the guy alone when they all (except him) scrunched in the middle is not a reason to worry about the 9 yd marks IMHO. Now...did they have 4 on ea side when ball was kicked? Hmmmmmmmmmm
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Pretty unique play
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pX13g2yv9Y
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The second man wasn't legal either until after the squeeze. You can hear the rfp right before the squeeze. Umpire should've kept the formation legal with some preventative officiating and it looks like the R might've missed the four men on each side of K but that has less to do with the play than the deception on the hideout. Deception has to be officiated with the utmost scrutiny and that's what that play was about. Deception to gain an advantage. IMO
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That was announced as a Fort Worth crew, but they are not from the FW chapter.
I can only count 3, at the most, on the right side of the kicker. On the clip, Coach Shipley said that they (Brownwood) ran the same play in bi-district.
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Most of the time Bob's analysis of the flags was way off, in this game anyway.
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TexDoc's spreadsheet shows Houston crew.
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White hat sure has the deer-in-the-headlights look on his face.
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He apparently hadn't had a mic mechanics evaluation or heard himself all year.
I really feel like one of the crew tried to get them to get that play right. Just a feeling when I was watching them in the heat of battle.
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I was at the game and the ready for play whistle was absolutely blown while all were spread out. The receiver never came inside the 9 yard marks and this is most assuredly an illegal play. Right before the end of the 1st half, there was a controversial TD catch that went against Gilmer and the coach really ate the refs out. In my opinion I don't think any of the officials on the crew had the balls to overturn this illegal play! If they didn't know it was an illegal play, then they should not be in that kind of game.
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i understand what you guys are saying about the technical illegality of the formation. But look at the video and tell me that Team B did not know there was a guy there. that is the intent of the rule, make sure they know where everyone is after the RFP. They knew full well where he was. The fact that he did not compress in with his teammates yet B chose to ignore that is not on A. Being way too technical.
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If a coach brought this up before the game then we would tell him it was illegal, at least how it happened here with the player outside the numbers.
The U and B on our crew would have had the players inside the numbers before the RFP just as a routine matter of preventative officiating. If they then wanted to spread out and then go through the whole business while the play clock was running then that's OK.
But IMO the team A coach is taking advantage of the idea of a "technicality" to deceive the opponent. Even if it is a technicality it is still deception, and I think it's best here to just take away the opportunity by making sure all the players are inside the numbers.
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If the line up like up for a free kick with players outside the numbers I don't worry about it. If they are going to do some kind of trick play they had better be perfect. I would definitely flag it on this play. I consider KCI because the B player is close enough to be considered a potential receiver. It also looks like only 3 players to the right of the kicker. Lots of issues here. Great kick though!
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"Potential receiver" don't cut it. He needs to be trying to make a catch and he was not.
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No 1 is being too technical on this play at all. This play was illegal and should not have been allowed to stand. TM you can try to play Rogers Redding here but it ain't flying in my book. The deception on a play like that has to be officiated with the utmost scrutiny. It takes a set to throw a flag on that play but you gotta do it. As officials we can't just pick and choose which rules we want to enforce.
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It is easy to throw a flag for every little technical violation you see. Has nothing to do with having the balls to throw it. Has everything to do with understanding the game, understanding intent, and being able to discern if a team gained an advantage unfairly or not. I see Team B clearly in position to see where every Team A player on the field was. Nobody snuck into the field late. For whatever reason, Team B chose to react to Team A's compression the way they did. Heck, even after it was kicked did anyone from Team B make even a half hearted attempt to play the ball? No. They simply screwed up and I am not bailing them out with a flag.
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I understand philosophy, being technical, calling what your supervisor wants etc. I don't need a lesson on that. If you can't see the intent of th K team on this play I don't know what to say. Luckily it had no bearing on the game. Had this been a game where this play turned a game would we be hearing what a great coaching move this play was, I think not. I do know that this play will be evaluated in future training tapes, very soon, and I'd bet dimes to dollars that you'll be arguing with Rogers about him being wrong. We'll see.
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It would not be the first time he is wrong. ;) Read AR 6-2-2-IV lately?
The day a Texas HS game play makes a CFO tape is the day the Mayans have been waiting for
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The day a Texas HS game play makes a CFO tape is the day the Mayans have been waiting for
You mean yesterday?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Additionally, I would say illegal here if indeed the RFP was sounded before the shift.
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I'm having a real hard time hearing that TX Mike says this is technical. Why is the rule in the book? To keep this from happening. Is it just a coincidence that the receiver is facing the middle of the field with coaches close by, to give the look of not being involved in the play? I think not. Like an earlier post, I have had coaches bring that up to me in pre-game and I have told them not to run it. They will say "we have run it 5 times this year and never had it called." I tell them that if they run it tonight, it will be called. I see this as no different in your terms as having a tight end covered up. The defense knows he is there but choses not to cover him since he can't catch a pass legally. Then not throwing a flag if he catches a pass because "they knew he was there but chose not to stay with him". You are usually spot on with your analysis, but I have a hard time seeing you defend this play as legal. Sorry.
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How many of you have ever thrown a flag in this situation:
A88 runs a route ands up near the sideline at the end of the play, incomplete fwd pass. His team is in hurry up mode so he runs straight back to the LOS. He never gets inside the numbers, sets up between numbers and sideline, ball is marked RFP, B clearly sees he is there and has a DB out in his direction. Ball is snapped, the DB crashes in towards the QB who is sprinting out to that side. The safety does not rotate over fast enough so the QB sees A88 uncovered and passes to him.
I seriously doubt most of us would flag that. It is the same concept.
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I don't agree that it is the same concept. In this play, there is a deliberate attempt to deceive by making it look like the player is standing on the sideline and not part of the play. If I had a receiver stand by the sideline next to the coaches after a play in an attempt to make it look like he had left the field then I would flag it.
This could easily be resolved by the U telling him to get inside the numbers. If he refuses, then you have an obvious attempt to deceive using the hope that the officials don't want to be seen as being too picky, and we should flag that.
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. If I had a receiver stand by the sideline next to the coaches after a play in an attempt to make it look like he had left the field then I would flag it.
Even if the defense obviously is accounting for him?
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If I tell him to get inside of the numbers, and he doesn't....... then he's mine. ^flag
Spirit and intent of the rule argument? If you want to use that, how many times are you going to let him flaunt it until you take care of business?
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On the play you described, the receiver is not required to go back inside the 9 yard marks because he participated in the previous play. Completely different situation. I am sorry, but the kickoff was a clear and cleverly designed "hide-out" play that is the reason the rules were changed to start with. I can't believe this is even being defended by the newest of officials, much less seasoned veterans. Come on now! Like I said in my first post, if the crew doesn't know the rule, they shouldn't be in the game. If they know it and chose not to call it - same thing if not worse!!!
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7-1-3-b-1 If you don't know this rule then what level of game should you be confined to? ;)
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You are absolutely correct on your play and I stand corrected. Most of the time players who participated previously are, or have been inside the 9's, but your play tricked me. That being said, I still will never agree that the kick-off was any where legal and see no situation where it should be ignored.
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For all you 9 yard mark lovers....Here is a little video of KOs from 2 different bowl games this bowl season.
http://youtu.be/Ix0yzlVsvnU
Notice anything?
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I'd say that gilmer play is illegal because of not having enough players on one side of the ball. I think that's the bigger issue, you should be able to pick that one up pretty easily.
If you're gonig to flag every free kick where players are outside the 9's at the RFP, you're going to flag almost all of them.
It's like when an offensive player comes in the game at the last second, usually a WR and doesn't make it inside the 9's....BUT if the D has a man on the new player to cover him, are you going to call that too even though no advantage has been gained?