Semi-Hidden Change on Illegal Forward Passes

[TXMike]

The somewhat simplistic language in the rule change document fooled me.  Should have known better.  Now that we have the actual rulebook, some changes that were not readily apparent before are now clear. 7-3-2 is an example.  The rule used to call for a 5 yard penalty from spot of foul and loss of down for several different types of illegal forward passes, to include those thrown to conserve time.  No more.  "All IG" will be only loss of down from spot of foul.  The 5 yard penalty will kick in for other types of illegal forward passes, i.e. passer across the line, 2d forward pass, etc.  The obvious 1st question is what about a pass that fits the definition of IG and another type of illegal forward pass.  Ex: 3d and 10 at the 50. QB A12 , at the A-40, throws a quick fwd pass out to end A88. A88 catches it at the A-45 and drops back to pass the ball downfield to another receiver.  The receiver is covered, so under a heavy rush, A88 (at the A-40) dumps the ball into the ground into an area where there was no eligible Team A receiver.   Ruling?

[zebra99]

good one - My vote is that the 5 yd. type illegal passes trump the "conserve" type illegal passes and we would penalize 5 yds.

[TXMike]

...and the clock starts on  snap/ready?

[zebra99]

...and the clock starts on  snap/ready?

it starts when I say it starts!!!! 

I'd say on the snap they way you wrote the play because he wasn't dumping it to conserve time.

But what if the clock showed :35 left in the game at the end of the play?

[TXMike]

That is where my real confusion comes in.  My gut says penalize the 5 yards, take the down away, offer B the 10 second subtraction, and restart on the ready or snap based on what B chooses.   I am not sure I can support that by rule since it seems I have to choose to either have an illegal forward pass to conserve time or an illegal forward pass period.  I can't have an act that is 2 fouls and enforce the penalties for both. 

[zebra99]

don't think you have to choose the type of illegal forward pass to apply the 10 sec. sub. rule.  I think the 10 sec. part is independent with the applicable fouls listed on FR55 which include an incomplete illegal fwd. pass.  An illegal fwd pass to conserve time is an illegal forward pass as part of the a through h listing on FR75.

So the way I look at it is you choose the type of illegal fwd pass for penalty enforcement but don't have to for the 10 sec. rule. because they all count for the 10 sec. rule.

[TXMike]

Not all illegal forward passes qualify for the 10 second subtraction.  In this case, it would because it was an incomplete illegal forward pass.  But my point is, if you are calling it an illegal forward pass to conserve time so you can take advantage of the "zap10" and the clock restart on the ready, can you also penalize the 5 yards?

[zebra99]

Not following you - why do you have to call it to conserve time to get the 10 sec.? 

[dvasques]

Because the clock stopped for the incompletion and not because of the ilegality of the pass?

[TXMike]

Mixing 2 scenarios in my mind.  If the illegal forward pass is incomplete it qualifies for the zap 10 but if it is not incomplete it does not.  Let's try a new play

:12 left in half. A is out of timeouts.   3d and 10 at the B-40.  QB throws a quick out to A88.  A88 runs to the B-25 and pitches the ball forward to A80 as he (A88) is being tackled.  A80 grabs the pass and steps out of bounds at the B-20.  Clock stops with :03 left.  If you call this an illegal forward pass, the 5 yard penalty puts the ball at the B-30, 1st and 10, clock starts on the snap.  No Zap 10 and no clock on the ready (unless you are willing to go the 3-4-3 route).

[zebra99]

let's go back to basics.  Even though the 10 sec. rule states "....commits a foul that causes the clock to stop...." it specifically lists intentional grounding to stop the clock, incomplete illegal forward pass and backward pass thrown OB to stop the clock as examples where the zap 10 applies.

So the debate about what stopped the clock on these fouls is moot.  So as long as it's an incomplete illegal pass of the sort listed, 10 sec. run off applies, then you decide what type for whether there's a 5 yd penalty or not.

At least that's they I look at it.