Author Topic: illegal forward pass incomplete question  (Read 7052 times)

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Offline dammitbobby

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illegal forward pass incomplete question
« on: March 16, 2020, 04:56:28 PM »
Have you ever been thinking about a play from a previous season that is stuck in your brain, and then realized your knowledge of the rule was wrong?  Like, a real DERP moment?

QB threw the ball to the RB on the edge was definitely forward, and then the RB lobbed it downfield incomplete.  I was LJ, play was away from me on far sideline.  I remember talking to the HL afterwards/during a break about it to see if he thought it was forward, and he thought it was too, and he was glad it was incomplete so he didn't have to flag it.  That really stuck in my brain as something off with that answer (didn't say anything since I was a first year official) and I just now got around to looking it up.

Definition of a pass: 2.19.A1:  Passing the ball is throwing it. A pass continues to be a pass until it is caught or intercepted by a player or the ball becomes dead.

3.2.D - a second forward pass is illegal if it is the second forward pass during the same down.

7.3.A4:  When an illegal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing team at the spot of the pass (Exception: If Team B declines the penalty for
an illegal pass thrown from the end zone, the ball shall next be put in play at the previous spot.)

So should have been flagged, ball placed at spot of the foul (the second pass attempt), loss of down, clock starts on snap.  (correct, since it was incomplete?) I think my understanding at the time (and his as well) was that it was only a foul if the second forward pass was completed.  #themoreyouknow  (unless I am having a facepalm moment here?)

also - from a mechanics perspective, I have been taught that sideline refs should never sail a flag across the field, but I clearly saw it was a 2nd forward pass (wasn't really ballwatching, there wasn't much going on, on my side of the field), OK to flag or nah? What's the right protocol/mechanic for that?



« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 05:00:20 PM by dammitbobby »

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 05:56:11 PM »
You're missing one step on the enforcement. The ball belongs to the passing team at the spot of the pass, but the penalty for an illegal forward pass is five yards and loss of down. So it would be Team A's ball 5 yards behind the spot of the pass. Yes, the clock starts on the snap because of the incomplete pass with a couple exceptions. If the pass is to conserve time (doesn't sound like it in this case) it would start on the ready for play. If there is less than one minute left in either half, this qualifies for a ten second runoff and the clock will do whatever the teams' choices dictate.

As far as mechanics, the direction of a pass is the responsibility of the official towards which the pass is thrown. But if you are 100% sure that the first pass is forward, and your crewmate does not, you can flag this. I would consider this one a big enough foul that I don't care who throws it. If there's any doubt at all, let it go.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2020, 07:08:00 PM »
Bobby,
The rule sections you quoted are, of course, quite appropriate, and it is very good that you looked for all of this.  But, as Legacy pointed out, you didn’t check the penalty statement, which specifies the associated distance penalty, for this foul. Be sure to check everything.
Legacy’s analysis is as good as anybody could ask for.  Exceptional.

Another thought on mechanics, though.  Sometimes even a respected, experienced guy can have a brain fart.  If you know this guy is good, but he doesn’t throw on it, I can understand YOU not throwing on it, either, figuring he might know something you don’t.  But, don’t be afraid to hustle over and have a conversation with him, something like: “I had a good look at the first pass, and it was definitely forward.  So, I believe the second pass was illegal.  What did you see?”
If he starts talking about the second pass being incomplete, so, no foul, simply remind him that an illegal forward pass foul is not dependent upon the pass being complete.  It is foul, regardless.  Then when the light goes off for him, y’all (he) ‘could’ still call the foul.  The trick would be knowing the right yard line.  But, oh, you dropped a bean bag at the spot before you hustled over, so you’ve got it.  Wow.  You just saved the crew.  The teams/ fans might not like it, but your superiors should applaud you.  Our job is to get it right. 
That might ‘play’ better, especially with your cross field partner.

Offline Magician

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 11:51:41 PM »
I'll just add you could definitely have helped rule on forward/backward if you had nothing else to look at or it was immediately after the snap. It's often easier for the wing on the back side to rule on that because the front side wing has 10 things going on at once. On a play like this if you felt strongly the first pass was forward, I would have no issue with your dropping a flag to have a conversation about the direction of the first pass. It sounds like the other wing would have agreed the first pass was forward so you flag would have been a crew saver.

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2020, 12:06:51 AM »
All good except are we sure this qualifies for a 10 second run off.  The clock stopped at the end of the play because of the incomplete pass -- not because of the foul.  Now, if the second pass was complete and the receiver was tackled in bounds and shorts of the line to gain ---- and you had a flag for the ILP -- then the 10 second run off would apply.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2020, 07:29:47 AM »
All good except are we sure this qualifies for a 10 second run off.  The clock stopped at the end of the play because of the incomplete pass -- not because of the foul.  Now, if the second pass was complete and the receiver was tackled in bounds and shorts of the line to gain ---- and you had a flag for the ILP -- then the 10 second run off would apply.

DallasLJ,
3-4-4-a lists specific items that qualify for the 10-second subtraction.  The fourth item in that list is an incomplete illegal forward pass.

Now, I will grant you that the specific scenario that this item was intended to cover is when an A player simply throws the ball forward (first forward pass of the down) while beyond the NZ (but short of the LTG), because he knows he is out of T/Os and needs to get the clock stopped (and the pass is incomplete).  It wasn't necessarily written to cover a second forward pass (which may have been intended to be a legal pass, but they botched the first pass).  But, a second forward pass might just as easily fit the model of this rule, e.g., a receiver catches a legal forward pass, advances, but, short of the line-to-gain, and with no T/Os remaining, he throws it toward a teammate beyond him, but it falls incomplete.

I will add that, with any INCOMPLETE illegal forward pass, the clock stops because it is both an incomplete forward pass, and a foul.  One can argue chicken-or-egg in these cases, but the fact that Team A committed a foul that directly and immediately resulted in the clock being stopped (deliberate or unintentional), it will qualify for the 10-second subtraction.

Some may want to argue that the foul occurred when the pass was released, so the foul did not immediately stop the clock. However, that is not correct. The foul can not occur until the pass officially becomes a "forward" pass, which can't happen until it touches something beyond the yard line from which it was thrown.  Yes, it could become forward - and a foul -  before it becomes incomplete, by touching a player or an official. But the time differential between that moment and when it becomes incomplete would be inconsequential.

Bottom line: If it is an incomplete illegal forward pass, or intentional grounding and the pass is incomplete, it qualifies for the 10-second subtraction.

Want to open a can of worms?  How about an incomplete illegal forward pass by Team B during the final minute of a half?  The same rule applies.  But, why would B need to commit a foul to stop the clock, since it will stop at the end of the down, anyway?  I can't really answer that, because the BC could always just fall down to stop the clock.  So, why give up yards by committing a foul?  It most likely wouldn't be intentional.  Most likely an errant attempt at a backward pass, that goes forward and falls incomplete.  Still qualifies for 3-4-4.

Another anomaly:  Intentional grounding, but the pass is complete.  As much as I hate the interpretation, if the team A passer throws the ball to an ineligible teammate (deliberately or otherwise) - and there is no eligible A player in the area - that is still "intentional grounding," but the ball continues in play, so the clock doesn't stop.  So, the 10-second subtraction doesn't apply.  That makes sense, since they gained no clock advantage by the pass being complete, and play continuing.  (PS I'd prefer to see this NOT be intentional grounding, but simply illegal touching.  But, I'm not in charge.)

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2020, 07:48:56 AM »
In your situation Dallas, it would not be a 10RO because the foul didn’t stop the clock. If the pass is complete, it’s no different than a hold or illegal formation. You stopped the clock for penalty enforcement, not because of the foul itself.

And to Elvis’ scenario regarding a Team B pass, that would not be a 10RO either because the rule only applies prior to a change in team possession. Once B gets the ball, there can be no 10RO.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: illegal forward pass incomplete question
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 08:39:38 AM »
And to Elvis’ scenario regarding a Team B pass, that would not be a 10RO either because the rule only applies prior to a change in team possession. Once B gets the ball, there can be no 10RO.

You da man, Legacy.  Forgot about that phrase in the rule.  The problem - for me, anyway - is that I learn better by "doing," and, in 44 seasons, I simply haven't had these scenarios happen.  So, we have to constantly review and remind ourselves of the intricacies of the rules.  OK, inside a minute in the half, B intercepts, attempts a backward pass, but it goes forward, and falls incomplete.  Down over.  Clock stopped. Assuming there is still time on the clock, penalize B 5-yards from the spot of the pass for the illegal forward pass, set up 1st & 10 for B, start 25 second play clock, and the game clock starts on the snap.
I've now got that phrase highlighted in my book.
Good discussion.