Author Topic: Need help with this play.  (Read 6504 times)

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Offline Chiefump

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Need help with this play.
« on: August 03, 2020, 01:08:31 PM »
Team A 4/10 @ B-35. Team A's low punt is partially blocked by Team B at the B-30 and caroms back to the B-36 where A80 bats the ball forward and it is muffed and subsequently goes out of bounds at the B-21.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 01:53:52 PM »
Once Team B touches the kick at the B-30, the kick has crossed the neutral zone by rule and the neutral zone ceases to exist. That means that when A80 bats the ball, there is no loss of down for that foul. But it's still a foul by the kicking team during a scrimmage kick play and the ball belongs to Team B, so Team B can enforce the penalty from the B-21 and have 1st and 10 at the B-31. Or they can enforce it with the true 3-and-1 enforcement at the previous spot and replay 4th down from the B-45. My guess is they're going to want the ball. B 1/10 @ B-31, 25, Snap.

Offline Chiefump

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 02:16:03 PM »
In the Redding Study guide there is a scenario where the ball is illegally kicked. “ on fourth down the kick by punter A72 is partially blocked, crosses NZ and is forced back behind the NZ where A89 kicks the ball out of bounds. Ruling: A foul for illegally kicking the ball. The foul takes place behind the basic spot, 3&1 enforcement is the spot of the foul. Because the scrimmage kick was behind the NZ (even though the ball first crossed the NZ) the penalty includes loss of down.  Based on this why would the enforcement in this play not be the same. 

Offline Kalle

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 02:46:27 PM »
In the Redding Study guide there is a scenario where the ball is illegally kicked. “ on fourth down the kick by punter A72 is partially blocked, crosses NZ and is forced back behind the NZ where A89 kicks the ball out of bounds. Ruling: A foul for illegally kicking the ball. The foul takes place behind the basic spot, 3&1 enforcement is the spot of the foul. Because the scrimmage kick was behind the NZ (even though the ball first crossed the NZ) the penalty includes loss of down.  Based on this why would the enforcement in this play not be the same.

Your play situation is different in that in the study guide play situation the blocking occurs within three yards of the neutral zone, so it is considered to have happened behind the NZ. Your play has the touch by team B occur five yards beyond, which in rule book language is no longer "blocking" (as the ball has obviously crossed the NZ) but simply touching or maybe even batting (which would be a foul, but let's assume that it wasn't a bat).
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 02:55:53 PM by Kalle »

Offline Chiefump

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 03:02:22 PM »
By rule it is still a screen kick until possessed or declared dead. By definition the NZ goes away if a scrimmage kick touches the beyond the NZ so where it is touched is irrelevant. This scenario is no different from the batting scenario.

Offline Chiefump

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 03:09:12 PM »
Sorry about the typos. Trying to type while on the road. It remains a “scrimmage kick” until possessed or declared dead. The ball touched the ground beyond the NZ in either case.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 09:52:04 PM »
I'm not going to claim to have an affirmative answer. I've always followed the rule language and the ARs. I don't rely on Redding's Guide (have never actually owned one). But, if the language in that Guide example actually uses the expression, "...crosses NZ...," by definition, that means that the legally kicked ball has been touched by Team A anywhere beyond the NZ; has touched the ground anywhere beyond the NZ; or has been touched by Team B in flight more than 3 yards beyond the NZ (i.e., not "blocking" by definition). If we are to be guided by this example (as presented by Chief), then that would seem to indicate that the rule may not be as we - well, I, anyway - think it is.
In all honestly, I've always understood this rule to mean: once the ball has officially crossed the NZ, then illegal batting and kicking no longer carry the loss-of-down component of the penalty. But, the rule language, taken at its English language face value, technically, means something else. Nowhere in the rules does it say, or even imply, that the NZ "goes away" once the ball has crossed the NZ. That being the case, the fact that the kicking/batting penalty statements say, "Exception: No loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal scrimmage kick is beyond the neutral zone," may not mean what we have thought it to mean. Note that it doesn't say, "when the scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone." It says ,"..when the scrimmage kick IS beyond the neutral zone." If that language is taken at face value, then Redding's guide example makes sense. The foul occurred when the legal scrimmage kick was beyond the NZ.

While I've not known about Redding's Guide example until now, I have been aware of this language 'curiosity,' and have wanted to get a ruling from Redding before he vacated the Sec-Ed position, but never got a chance to pose the question to him.

The reason for the exception, as I have always understood, is because, once the ball has crossed the NZ, Team A gets no advantage by kicking/batting the ball because that is also illegal touching, and Team B could always invoke the illegal touching privilege. 10 yards plus LOD at the previous spot would be too much penalty, especially for a foul truly committed beyond the NZ. Note that this rule was created long before the ability to penalize Team A fouls at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to B, but it certainly applies, making the LOD component even more moot.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 09:55:54 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2020, 10:12:12 PM »
The "touching" of a scrimmage kick more than three yards downfield can not be considered "blocking" and the touching is not ignored for purposes of crossing the line of scrimmage and breaking the continuation of downs.

Offline wtagriffin

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2020, 11:04:47 AM »
Elvis, check out 2-17-1-c and 2-16-7-b regarding the NZ.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 01:58:30 PM »
Elvis, check out 2-17-1-c and 2-16-7-b regarding the NZ.

When in doubt, check those "pesky" definitions.   ;D

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2020, 03:24:45 PM »
Elvis, check out 2-17-1-c and 2-16-7-b regarding the NZ.

Yeah, wrong again about the “fine print,” so to speak.

So, still can’t explain Redding’s guide example, then. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

Offline Chiefump

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Re: Need help with this play.
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2020, 03:33:18 PM »
I don’t disagree with what has been said by my fellow officials. I respect all of your thoughts and opinions which is why I posed this question. I can’t understand the difference from the current interpretation from the Redding one. But my point is that Team B will benefit more if they can accept the penalty which is enforced from the spot of the foul with a loss of down. Yes I know by definition the NZ goes away but is that the intent of the rule. You have to love football rules. One thing for sure we never stop learning. Thank you for discussing this play.