Author Topic: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship  (Read 35352 times)

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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2011, 07:34:25 PM »
My bad...

"After further review"... When the R found out the clip had been removed, he asked if anyone was writing down the down and distance or was keeping up with where the stakes were.  Both chain holders were writing down where they had started on every series.  The H had someone doing this and went to him.  The chains were then set.



We're talking about a difference of 2 inches.  Does the chain crew mark their spot THAT accurately?  Unless the chains started exactly at the edge of five yard line, there is no way they could replace the chains accurately.

This was a mechanical disaster.  Once the chains were reset and the clip was moved, this should have been left alone, you go with the call on the field.  Replay official blew this one.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2011, 07:47:10 PM »
Amen, Blue. My point exactly.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2011, 07:17:16 PM »
The story still is alive:

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110114/SPORTS07/101140359/1002/SPORTS&theme=SPORTSOPINION


Frank: Keeler still
scrubbing at stain of
'The Spot'

 COMMENTARY • By MARTIN FRANK • January 14,
2011

 NEWARK -- University of Delaware football coach K.
C. Keeler began his postseason press conference
Thursday by saying he was going to spend most of
the time answering questions, and not make much
of an opening statement.

But Keeler couldn't help himself.

He spent a few minutes talking about the offense,
then the defense, and what a great season it was.

Keeler then spent the next 6 1/2 minutes talking
about the fourth-down play that he is convinced
cost the Hens the national championship. He spent
several more minutes answering questions about it,
going through each sequence as if it were the
Zapruder film.

Keeler said the play, in which the Hens appeared to
stop Eastern Washington on a fourth-and-one from
the UD 23 with less than four minutes left, was
going to forever be called "The Stop."

Instead, he said it will be forever known as "The
Spot."

Four plays later, EWU scored the touchdown that
sent the Hens to a 20-19 loss in the Division I-AA
championship game after UD had a 19-0 lead
midway through the third quarter.

It would be easy to say that Keeler should give it a
rest, move on, and start focusing on recruiting,
winter workouts, and so on.

Keeler said he has done just that.

But Keeler is also passionate and meticulous,
perhaps to a fault. And maybe this is his way of
soothing the pain from a loss that he admits "still
stings."

So Keeler described how he spent two hours after
the game going over the fourth-down play with Tom
 Yeager, the Colonial Athletic Association
commissioner; and Dennis Poppe, the NCAA
managing director of football and baseball.

He described how the clip on the chain was wrongly
moved, and that it wasn't put back in the proper
place when the referees decided to review the play,
which they originally measured for a first down. So
EWU got a first down again, even though the ball
was moved back after the review.

"We watched it together," Keeler said. "They didn't
want to see the truth. I made them see the truth. I
wanted to make sure there was no dispute. They
were like, 'Yeah, coach, there's no dispute.' "


You could almost picture Jack Nicholson in the
room, yelling: "You can't handle the truth!"

Then Keeler went to Phoenix to accept the Liberty
Mutual Coach of the Year award. He said he
commiserated with Oregon coach Chip Kelly, whose
team also lost the Division I-A national
championship in the final minutes.

Keeler said he talked to referees he knows from the
Big East and NFL.

He even mentioned how he heard, but hasn't been
able to confirm, that the officials working the chains
were actually referees given a special honor of
working a championship game.

"It's like telling a referee, 'OK, now you're a ballboy,'
" Keeler said. "I know what ballboys do, but I've
never been a ballboy before."
Who knows? The FBI might get involved next.

At least this way, Keeler can say the referees cost his
team the game, rather than the offense all of a
sudden couldn't execute, or the defense all of a
sudden couldn't stop EWU.

On offense, the Hens' formula the entire season was
get a lead, give the ball to running back Andrew
Pierce and let quarterback Pat Devlin pick apart a
defense.

Through 2 1/2 quarters, the plan worked.

Then it didn't.

On defense, the Hens tried everything to slow EWU's
passing attack in the second half.

"We didn't make any plays," defensive coordinator
Nick Rapone said. "I called every coverage I could.
...

"We couldn't stop their momentum. We couldn't
make plays, and they made plays. Black and white,
that's exactly what it comes down to."

But Keeler is convinced there's a shade of gray.

So he went to every source he could find, getting
each one to corroborate his belief that the referees
messed up on that crucial fourth-down play.

Keeler is probably right.

It doesn't matter anymore.

As Keeler put it: "You never get a game like that
back."



texref

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 11:57:26 PM »
The Chain Crew was a group of Southland Conference Officials. I don't know that they were "rewarded" as much as they live in the DFW area. The Replay Guys were both Big XII Conference Replay Officials.

texref32

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 08:11:08 AM »
2 officials that were on the chain crew worked the Delaware/Georgia Southern semi final game......

Offline TXMike

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2011, 06:40:49 AM »
Some in Delaware will not let it go....

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110123/SPORTS07/101230344&theme=SPORTSOPINION


Tresolini: NCAA should admit mistakes
By KEVIN TRESOLINI • The News Journal • January 23, 2011

It has now been 16 days since the fiasco in Frisco, where an apparent act of incompetence contributed to the University of Delaware's loss of an NCAA football championship.
Some may not want to hear or confirm that, for fear it tarnishes the title won 20-19 by Eastern Washington that Friday night in Texas.
Make no mistake, the Eagles were worthy winners, making plays and defensive stops with impressive passion and precision in the game's decisive final 18 minutes while erasing a 19-0 UD advantage. They are to be saluted.
But the NCAA, an organization that prides itself on fairness and equity, and has voluminous rulebooks to ensure such, needs to come clean.
Many are certainly tired of hearing about what will forever be known locally as "The Spot," which is understandable. Yet, it needs to be addressed so it never, ever, happens again.
Eastern Washington is NCAA champion. Delaware is not. So be it. The Blue Hens had their chances.
But they also had an apparent fourth-down defensive stop on a fourth-and-1 run by Eastern's Mario Brown at the UD 23-yard line with 3:26 left. Officials initially spotted the ball in a place that, after a measurement, gave the Eagles a first down. They moved the chains. But the spot was reviewed. The football was moved back.
And here is where things happened that undermine the NCAA and its operation of the Division I-AA title game.
Officials called for the chains to come out to measure for a first down. But the small disc, which is clipped to the chain at a major yard line -- one ending in a '0' or a '5' -- and, therefore, ensures exact placement when a measurement is made on the field, had, inexplicably, been removed from the chain. Exact placement of the chains was impossible.
Sideline witnesses, who included Delaware coaches, players and some former players, said the chain crew was telling the referees, "We can't re-spot the chains." The Southern Conference crew brought them out anyway.
The referees, in an NCAA championship game, just guessed on the placement of the chains. They guessed wrong.
TV replays show the 10-yard chain stretching to the edge of the 22 on the goal-line side as the previous series is being run. When re-spotted, the football did not appear to reach that far. But when the chains were brought out the second time, they only reached the side of the 22 toward the 50.
Eastern Washington was given a first down and scored three plays later, then thwarted a Delaware possession to preserve its one-point lead.
So why did the chain crew remove the clip, and why didn't the replay official correct the mistake caused by the misplaced chains?
The 10-yard chain is supposed to have two clips, as one is left on from the previous series just in case officials need to go back, said Rogers Redding, the NCAA's national coordinator for football officiating. It rarely happens, he added, but did in the Delaware-Eastern Washington title game, and he said, "added a level of uncertainty."
No one has been able to explain why the clip was removed or if the crew was using just one instead of the proper two, leading some to believe the chain gang, made up of Southland and Big 12 conference officials, was not qualified to work the game. Dennis Poppe, NCAA vice president for football and baseball, said it was a qualified crew and had also worked the Big 12 championship game.
Byron Boston, coordinator of officials for the Southland Conference, also said it was an able crew but wouldn't answer how such an elementary mistake could occur in regard to the clip.
While referring inquiries to the NCAA, Boston didn't seem to appreciate being questioned and grew defensive when pressed about issues such as the number of clips required on the chains. He even fired out this gem: "I'm an official in the NFL. Do you know what that is?"
Yes, it's a league that admits to its mistakes.
As for the replay booth being able to help with the chain placement, replay official Don Kapral of the Big 12 kindly deferred to the NCAA. Poppe said the replay official's job is "to determine forward progress," but not placement of the chains.
Next Page1| 2| 3Previous Page
It has now been 16 days since the fiasco in Frisco, where an apparent act of incompetence contributed to the University of Delaware's loss of an NCAA football championship.


Some may not want to hear or confirm that, for fear it tarnishes the title won 20-19 by Eastern Washington that Friday night in Texas.
Make no mistake, the Eagles were worthy winners, making plays and defensive stops with impressive passion and precision in the game's decisive final 18 minutes while erasing a 19-0 UD advantage. They are to be saluted.
But the NCAA, an organization that prides itself on fairness and equity, and has voluminous rulebooks to ensure such, needs to come clean.
Many are certainly tired of hearing about what will forever be known locally as "The Spot," which is understandable. Yet, it needs to be addressed so it never, ever, happens again.
Eastern Washington is NCAA champion. Delaware is not. So be it. The Blue Hens had their chances.
But they also had an apparent fourth-down defensive stop on a fourth-and-1 run by Eastern's Mario Brown at the UD 23-yard line with 3:26 left. Officials initially spotted the ball in a place that, after a measurement, gave the Eagles a first down. They moved the chains. But the spot was reviewed. The football was moved back.
And here is where things happened that undermine the NCAA and its operation of the Division I-AA title game.
Officials called for the chains to come out to measure for a first down. But the small disc, which is clipped to the chain at a major yard line -- one ending in a '0' or a '5' -- and, therefore, ensures exact placement when a measurement is made on the field, had, inexplicably, been removed from the chain. Exact placement of the chains was impossible.
Sideline witnesses, who included Delaware coaches, players and some former players, said the chain crew was telling the referees, "We can't re-spot the chains." The Southern Conference crew brought them out anyway.
The referees, in an NCAA championship game, just guessed on the placement of the chains. They guessed wrong.

TV replays show the 10-yard chain stretching to the edge of the 22 on the goal-line side as the previous series is being run. When re-spotted, the football did not appear to reach that far. But when the chains were brought out the second time, they only reached the side of the 22 toward the 50.


Eastern Washington was given a first down and scored three plays later, then thwarted a Delaware possession to preserve its one-point lead.
So why did the chain crew remove the clip, and why didn't the replay official correct the mistake caused by the misplaced chains?
The 10-yard chain is supposed to have two clips, as one is left on from the previous series just in case officials need to go back, said Rogers Redding, the NCAA's national coordinator for football officiating. It rarely happens, he added, but did in the Delaware-Eastern Washington title game, and he said, "added a level of uncertainty."
No one has been able to explain why the clip was removed or if the crew was using just one instead of the proper two, leading some to believe the chain gang, made up of Southland and Big 12 conference officials, was not qualified to work the game. Dennis Poppe, NCAA vice president for football and baseball, said it was a qualified crew and had also worked the Big 12 championship game.
Byron Boston, coordinator of officials for the Southland Conference, also said it was an able crew but wouldn't answer how such an elementary mistake could occur in regard to the clip.
While referring inquiries to the NCAA, Boston didn't seem to appreciate being questioned and grew defensive when pressed about issues such as the number of clips required on the chains. He even fired out this gem: "I'm an official in the NFL. Do you know what that is?"
Yes, it's a league that admits to its mistakes.
As for the replay booth being able to help with the chain placement, replay official Don Kapral of the Big 12 kindly deferred to the NCAA. Poppe said the replay official's job is "to determine forward progress," but not placement of the chains.

Redding concurred, saying location of the yard markers is "not something that's formally reviewable.'' But, he added, nothing prevents a replay official from making an observation and relaying it to officials.

Nick Trainer, the Big East replay official who worked the quarterfinal and semifinal games at Delaware, confirmed that even when something is deemed "not reviewable," the replay official is permitted to correct what he terms an "egregious" error.
A longtime NFL referee who spoke to The News Journal, and asked that his name not be used because of his association with the league, said the replay booth should have informed field officials not to bring the chains out for the initial measurement, before the spot of the ball was reviewed.
He added that on-field officials' unfamiliarity with replay review, used only in I-AA during the playoffs, likely contributed to the mix-ups.
Delaware coach K.C. Keeler, who watched videotape with Poppe, Colonial Athletic Association officials and others immediately after the title game, is still seething over what he feels is an injustice.
"If this was Oregon-Auburn," Keeler said of the BCS title game, which is not even an NCAA-run event, "nobody would be sweeping it under the carpet."
Poppe confirms there were "some procedural issues that are of a concern" to the NCAA, including the removal of the clip.
"It was an unfortunate situation," he said.
Even the original incorrect placement of the football, Keeler pointed out, was made by an official whose view of its precise location was obscured rather than by the official who had the proper vision and positioning. Had that been done properly, he said, it's possible none of the subsequent succession of errors would have occurred.
Poppe pointed out that spotting the football is "not an exact science," which is true.
It's also a game of inches, which furthers speculation about what should and shouldn't be a first down. It was almost too close to call. Having viewed videotape himself, Redding felt the football in its re-spotted location would probably have been a first down if the chains had been properly placed.
The TV replays I saw indicate otherwise. But again, that's not really the point here.
When there is an officiating error in the NFL, the league will make a statement confirming such.
The NCAA needs to fess up in regard to what is supposed to be one of its signature championship events, not to alter the outcome, but to help ensure it never happens again.


Offline justaLJ

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2011, 02:24:20 PM »
Wow, who 'da thunk so much ink would be used on the two clip mechanic?  :!#

Once you get past the sour grapes from the partisan writer, there's actually a few tidbits in there that make for good mechanics discussion -- from who had the better look at the spot to begin with, to chain crew management, to the use of replay. 

Interesting comments as well from those quoted...

Diablo

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2011, 06:41:34 PM »
"Fiasco in Frisco"   ::)  Reminds me of the Thriller in Manila.
Reckon they'll put a plaque at the stadium?   ;D  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 06:43:40 PM by Diablo »

Diablo

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2011, 06:35:01 AM »

Tresolini: NCAA should admit mistakes
By KEVIN TRESOLINI • The News Journal • January 23, 2011

Byron Boston, coordinator of officials for the Southland Conference, also said it was an able crew but wouldn't answer how such an elementary mistake could occur in regard to the clip.
While referring inquiries to the NCAA, Boston didn't seem to appreciate being questioned and grew defensive when pressed about issues such as the number of clips required on the chains. He even fired out this gem: "I'm an official in the NFL. Do you know what that is?"


If that is an indication of Coordinator Boston's overall attitude, I don't envy you Southland Conference boys.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2011, 02:25:49 PM »
I read a blurb on the D-II.com message board yesterday that some think the SLC may go the way of the SWC in the not too distant future. If that happens, Mr. Boston can break out the old Jerry Glanville definition of NFL when describing his supervisory role: "not for long".  :'(
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

texref32

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 09:33:06 AM »
If that is an indication of Coordinator Boston's overall attitude, I don't envy you Southland Conference boys.

Don't believe everything that is printed by a obvious bias reporter!!!

Do you really think a Coordinator would really say something like that to a reporter???

Fatman325

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 10:20:13 AM »
LOS guys,
Here is one more example of why we should start each first down with the ball on a hashmark or line. I think it is better to have the ball on the back of the line but we can have the ball on the front of the line if necessary. If we do this, we can go back and reset the chains and still have a measurement even if the clip gets removed. It appears to me that the LTG was in the center of the 22 which means that getting the center of the 32 is difficult. Obviously there are times in a game in which the ball must be spotted between lines but only on a limited basis. Guys who are opposed to this plan will say that we will get criticized for missing the absolute perfect spot but I can say that my experience has been that we have rarely been questioned about spots. Thoughts?

I believe that it may have been last year that Gene Steratore's crew had a coach challenge a 1st down spot where the LTG was the back of the 6 yardline. After review they put the ball straddling the 6 yardline and then measured. The measurement was entirely for TV as they knew that where the ball was placed was still going to be a 1st down.

Wolfgang

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 03:45:48 PM »
I totally agree with this comment.  To relate this back to the ongoing replay discussion, EWU began their go-ahead drive on their own 37 after a Blue Hen punt.  The first offensive play was a 31 yard pass down the middle of the field that put the ball on the UD 32.  Assuming this was a veteran crew working the national championship (I know the H was just picked up by the ACC), and given the length of the pass and it's position in the middle of the field, I'd bet a fair amount of money that they spotted the ball with the forward tip just touching the 32 yard line.  I'd find it hard to believe they'd place it with the tip of the ball in the middle of the line, straddling the line or worse yet inches short of the line.  Given that, it would mean they needed to reach the back of the 22 for a first down.  After replay, this is exactly where they were told to spot the ball 7:10 on the Youtube video confirms this.  And the ball just touches the front of the stake.  Given this, I'd say the crew got the chains back properly and it was a first down.  As for the first measurement at 0:56 and it looking like the stake was touching the front of the 22, the camera angle could certainly have had something to do with that.  Feel bad for the crew.  Other than the replay guy interjecting himself I thought they had a nearly perfect game.  Four fouls the whole game and none in the second half.  I'd take that in any game, let alone the championship on national tv.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 08:56:13 PM »
100 yards X 3 feet X 12 inches = 3600 linear inches on a football field.  If we miss a spot by 8 inches we are 99.997% accurate.  I have always and will continue to start on a line for any 1st and 10 outside the red zone.

Offline James

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 01:00:53 AM »
Must be nice to officiate on well defined fields. Next your going to tell me that the lines on the field are straight and perpendicular to each other!

Fatman325

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 09:03:04 AM »
Wolf,
I looked hard at the video to see exactly where the LTG was positioned and it looked like the front stake was in the center of the 22. It was really hard to tell and I too would give the crew the benefit of the doubt. If they started the series with the nose of the ball touching the 32 then the coach has no argument. The chains can be reset even without the clip. It may not look good, but it is as accurate as any spot that I might have had. I don't see that the coach has a major complaint here.

As for lines being straight and perpendicular that is for someone else to figure out. I hearken back to a story of a B10 HL who went to work a national TV game in South Bend and had the chain crew stretch the chains only to find that they were short between some lines but were long between others. Apparently the person who marked the field erred when using the stencil and they were off the width of the board in spots. They spent the day setting the chains from the LTG backward to the ball. That would make your head spin.

Diablo

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 10:53:33 AM »
Next your going to tell me that the lines on the field are straight and perpendicular to each other!

Whether all the long yardlines (those ending in 0 or 5) are parallel and precisely 5 yds apart are open questions.  Technically, using the clip to measure for first downs on the field of play is valid only if the long yardlines are equidistant and parallel.  Hence, practically, we assume they are.   

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 03:32:51 PM »
Must be nice to officiate on well defined fields. Next your going to tell me that the lines on the field are straight and perpendicular to each other!

Once you totally accept the premis that ALL lines ARE straight and perpendicular to each other you will find life on a football field, as an official, a lot easier to deal with. 

Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 03:40:32 PM »
Once you totally accept the premis that ALL lines ARE straight and perpendicular to each other you will find life on a football field, as an official, a lot easier to deal with. 

It can be a bit hard to do that when you've got six hashes between two 5-yard lines...

Offline James

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2011, 12:35:53 AM »
Or one of mine from last year. Line starts on the 30 on one sideline ends on the 35 of the other... I've seen some major curves in lines over here too... But I had meant it as a joke - obviously we are going to trust an normal looking field.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2011, 12:01:54 PM »
The uneven line argument goes away for games played on turf, something becoming more and more common these days.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Etref

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2011, 12:28:54 PM »
The uneven line argument goes away for games played on turf, something becoming more and more common these days.

Still does not stop HS coaches from squealling like a pig stuck under a gate when you do not measure one that is obviously not close.

" I don't make the rules coach!"