where is the basic spot?

[dvasques]

4/10 @ A-21. The snap is high over the punter's head. With the ball bouncing and the D on the punter's back, he runs to the ball and kicks it while it bounces @ A-8. The ball is fielded by B @ A-48 and the return ends @ A-18.

I know it will be B's ball. I'm having a hard time figuring out the basic spot for the illegal kick. The penalty statement doesn't say and I don't really know if this is a running play or what.

I'm thinking this has to be spot foul because the illegal kick is actualy a fumble that is recovered behind the spot of the foul

So I'd have B 1/10 @ A-9 (with the penalty) or B 1/10 @ A-8 with the return and no penalty

right?

[TXMike]

He kicked it at the 8 or the 18?

[azsteam]

Team A fouls behind the line scrimmage against a player are previous spots and fouls against the ball(ie Illegal Kicking) are spot fouls.  That's the way I remember it.


So the enforcement spot would be the A8 which B would take to to make it B 1/G @ A4.

[Andrew McCarthy]

4/10 @ A-21. The snap is high over the punter's head. With the ball bouncing and the D on the punter's back, he runs to the ball and kicks it while it bounces @ A-8. The ball is fielded by B @ A-48 and the return ends @ A-18.

I know it will be B's ball. I'm having a hard time figuring out the basic spot for the illegal kick. The penalty statement doesn't say and I don't really know if this is a running play or what.

I'm thinking this has to be spot foul because the illegal kick is actualy a fumble that is recovered behind the spot of the foul

So I'd have B 1/10 @ A-9 (with the penalty) or B 1/10 @ A-8 with the return and no penalty

right?

Is there anything in this play that meets the definition of a fumble?

[fearlessleader]

The snap is a backward pass, not a fumble.

[TXMike]

Although the language can be important, in this play whether the ball was lost by way of a fumble or an errant backward pass is immaterial.   Enforcement is the same

[dvasques]

Sorry, Mike, snap is from A-21, illegal kick is at A-8, recovery is at A-48 and return ends at A-18

I messed up these info on the original post...

So it would either be B 1/10 @ A-4, with penalty enforcement from the spot of the foul; or B 1/10 @ A-18, with no penalty and the result of the return taken; or B 1/10 @ A-9, with penalty enforcement at dead B ball.

Which one(s)?


azteam, the penalty description on 9-4-5 doesn't specify previous spot. And 10-2-2-b states that fouls for illegal use of hands, holding, IBB and PFs are the ones enforced from the previous spot if commited behind the line. Although, 6-3-13 states that penalties by A commited during a kick play in which the the ball crosses the NZ can be enforced at previous spot or at dead ball spot for B

Now I'm only getting more and more messed up because I don't know if I should consider this to be a kick play. I don't think so, but since I'm at a loss right now, I'm not sure.


Righ, Andrew, so the whole play, from the snap to the recovery by B is a backard pass, not a fumble. Does that mean that that part of the play should not be considered a run?

[TXMike]

It is a running plAy.  Since no enforcement spot is noted that makes it a 3 and 1.  Foul was behind end of run spot so penalize from there (spot of foul)

[jg-me]

There are two types of kick plays (free kick, scrimmage kick) and in each case the ball would have to be legally kicked to be considered a kick play. See 2-30-2 & 3. Obviously illegal kicks don't count so there is no possibility of a 'tack-on' enforcement for a live ball foul committed by Team A.
  In your play since B is clearly better off accepting the penalty, I would not confuse them by offering the option of declining.

[dvasques]

thanks guys