Playoff Rules Question

[tstearns1]

I'm getting into our state playoff rules test. I've got one question that is giving me problems.
Here it is:
4/8, K-40. K88 is the first to touch the punt at the R-35 and the ball rolls out of bounds at the R-28. K29 is flagged for holding at the K-38.
Here are my options to answer this question:
a. R may accept the penalty and have it enforced at the spot of first touching.
b. Team R will have the penalty enforced from the R-28
c.Because K29 committed a foul, first touching is ignored.
d. Team R will take the ball at spot of first touching.
I'm reading Rule 10 (Penalty Enforcement). The type of play listed in the question is obviously a scrimmage kick (Punt).
I'm having a problem coming up with a basic spot for this play with the first touching involved. I know first touching is not a penalty, however R may take the ball at first touching. However with the holding penalty by K involved would the penalty be enforced from first touching at the R35 or at the R28 where the kick ended. (kick went out of bounds at the R28 and that is when the kick ended.)
I would rule out answers c and d.
Any ideas of thoughts on this test question and where in the rule book I can find the answer to this question would be greatly appreciated.

[Magician]

If R accepts the penalty for the hold they give up the spot of first touching. It usually comes down to what would give them better field position and picking that. Prior to last year's rule change they would have had to decide if they wanted to back them and rekick or take first touching. Now they can tack it on to the end of the run.

Now their options are:
Accept and tack on to the end of the play being the R28. R's ball first and 10 at the R38.
Accept with the basic spot being the previous spot. K's ball 4th and 20 at the K28.
Decline and accept the spot of first touching (R35). R's ball first and 10 at the R35.

I wouldn't even give them the decline option. I would just ask which penalty enforcement they prefer. They will likely take the ball, but they could possibly want them to replay 4th down. I had a team do that once (rather than decline when time was a factor and they needed the ball) and they gained about 60 yards of field position when the punter shanked the second punt out of bounds behind the LOS!

[CalhounLJ]

If R takes the spot of first touching, it becomes the succeeding spot. The exception states that the basic spot can be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a kick. Where does it say the spot of first touching goes away?

[Magician]

If R takes the spot of first touching, it becomes the succeeding spot. The exception states that the basic spot can be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a kick. Where does it say the spot of first touching goes away?

It's at the end of rule 6-2-5:

The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

Great question!

[CalhounLJ]

No doubt. I fired off before I reread. 

[tstearns1]

Excellent. That was the rule I was looking for 6-2-5 (last sentence).
If R accepts penalty on K, first touching is ignored.

Thank you gentlemen.

[blandis]

Check out 10-4-2 Exception

[NVFOA_Ump]

It's at the end of rule 6-2-5:

The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

Great question!

I don't believe that applies to the case play here since R did not touch the kick.  I believe that the applicable rule here is the 10-4-2 exception (as blandis noted) which allows R to accept the penalty from the succeeding spot which would be the illegal touching spot. So a. R may accept the penalty and have it enforced at the spot of first touching would be the correct answer.

[CalhounLJ]

I wish that were so, but the correct reading of 6-2-5 states that if ANY foul committed during the down is accepted, first touching goes away. This includes a foul by K, regardless whether R touches the kick. Magician is spot-on. The examples in the Redding Study guide reinforce this interpretation.

[Magician]

I don't believe that applies to the case play here since R did not touch the kick.  I believe that the applicable rule here is the 10-4-2 exception (as blandis noted) which allows R to accept the penalty from the succeeding spot which would be the illegal touching spot. So a. R may accept the penalty and have it enforced at the spot of first touching would be the correct answer.

That's correct in the first sentence but not the second sentence. If R touches it and commits a foul after the first touching, they can't select the spot of first touching regardless of whether or not the penalty is accepted. But if any penalty is accepted then the first touching option goes away regardless of who fouled and when they fouls and if R ever touched the ball.

[NVFOA_Ump]

That's correct in the first sentence but not the second sentence. If R touches it and commits a foul after the first touching, they can't select the spot of first touching regardless of whether or not the penalty is accepted. But if any penalty is accepted then the first touching option goes away regardless of who fouled and when they fouls and if R ever touched the ball.

Where's the rule reference for "But if any penalty is accepted then the first touching option goes away regardless of who fouled and when they fouls and if R ever touched the ball."?

[CalhounLJ]

Where's the rule reference for "But if any penalty is accepted then the first touching option goes away regardless of who fouled and when they fouls and if R ever touched the ball."?

6-1-ART. 7 . . . If any K player touches a free kick before it crosses R's free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player, it is referred to as "first touching of the kick." R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching. Such touching is ignored if it is caused by R pushing or blocking K into contact with the ball. The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

[CalhounLJ]

6-2-5:
ART. 5 . . . When any K player touches a scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone to R's goal line before it is touched beyond the neutral zone by R and before the ball has come to rest, it is referred to as "first touching of the kick" and the place is the "spot of first touching." Such touching is ignored if it is caused by R pushing or blocking K into contact with the ball.

If any K player touches a scrimmage kick in this manner, R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching. The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

[NVFOA_Ump]

My read of 6-2-5 last sentence has the two "or" conditions after the "if R touches the kick":

The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and:

1.  thereafter during the down commits a foul or
2.  if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.


So we're saying that a more correct wording would actually be:

The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if either R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

[CalhounLJ]

Ran across this while reading the fundamentals section:

7. First touching of a kick by K is always ignored if the penalty is accepted for a foul during the down.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

Ran across this while reading the fundamentals section:
7. First touching of a kick by K is always ignored if the penalty is accepted for a foul during the down.
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So why in the world would you bury that statement in a non-rule section of the book and not simply fix the really poor wording in the specific applicable rule?

[Magician]

So why in the world would you bury that statement in a non-rule section of the book and not simply fix the really poor wording in the specific applicable rule?

What am I missing? It's not buried in a non-rule. Calhoun quoted both the free kick and scrimmage kick rules where it states first touching is ignored if there is an accepted penalty during the down.

[GA Umpire]

Ran across this while reading the fundamentals section:

7. First touching of a kick by K is always ignored if the penalty is accepted for a foul during the down.

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Here is a case from the 2019 Case Book.  Does it help to explain that the spot of "first touching" does not apply?

 *6.2.5 SITUATION C:

With fourth and 5 from K's 30-yard line, K9 punts the ball downfield where it is grounded and touched by K88 (first touching) at R's 30. The ball continues rolling and is picked up by R35 at R's 25-yard line. R35 is subsequently hit and fumbles at R's 28. The loose ball is recovered by K88 on the ground at R's 26. During the kick, R55 is flagged for holding.

RULING: If K accepts R's foul for holding, then it is enforced from the previous spot since post-scrimmage kick cannot apply as K is next to put the ball in play as a result of the recovered fumble. Also, if K accepts the foul, the awarded spot for first touching is not applied. If K declines R's foul, R will take the ball at the spot of first touching. (2-12-1, 2-12-2, 2-16-2h)

[bama_stripes]

NVFOA —
Repeat three times: “First touching goes away if there’s an accepted penalty.”

[NVFOA_Ump]

NVFOA —
Repeat three times: “First touching goes away if there’s an accepted penalty.”

Wouldn't it be much simpler if the rule book itself said EXACTLY that?  That way it would be said only once???

[Kalle]

Wouldn't it be much simpler if the rule book itself said EXACTLY that?  That way it would be said only once???

(Still) not an NFHS official, but from what I see the NFHS rules are written more or less the same as NCAA regarding first ("illegal" in NCAA) touching and accepted penalties. Both codes have chosen to put the language in two places, once for free kicks and once for scrimmage kicks. You are right that it could also be put in the definition of first touching in rule 2, and it would then apply to both free and scrimmage kicks.