Author Topic: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....  (Read 10820 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« on: November 30, 2022, 04:59:17 AM »
Yesterday was probably the first time I watched a soccer game in it's entirety.  FlAg1 USA vs Iran  FlAg1 gave me flashbacks to USA -USSR ice hockey back in 1980  aWaRd . It also brought up  ??? questions  ??? that I felt you guys might answer. I first went to our soccer board  ^talk only to see only 5 OPs had ever been made, with the last post in Sept.of 2021  :!#  :o, I then felt that some/many/most/all of you might be able to answer......

TIME : It appeared the game is played under running time, but the''down time' while the clock is running and then added at the end. It didn't show the countdown and the plat-by-play guy just announced :"THE GAME IS OVER  FlAg1"

PENALTIES: i assume that a yellow card is like our 5 yarder and a red card is like our 15 yarder +  :thumbup.

DROP KICKS: I briefly attended a HS game  with my sister as my nephew was a goalie. He often drop-kicked the ball to clear it. I didn't notice any drop-kicks yesterday, is that a dying art there,too  ???.

ANY HELP WOULD BE WELCOMED  yEs:

PS : Next game vs Dutch...they are our buddies...I may not watch  :!#

 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 ( I believe they,too, play with 11  aWaRd
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 05:15:58 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Kalle

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2022, 06:21:36 AM »
Disclaimer: I'm not a soccer referee.

Time: yeah, soccer is funny in that "stoppage time" is added to the end of the half at the discretion of the referee and this added time is not shown anywhere except on the referee's wrist watch (I think the soccer laws actually say that it may not be displayed exactly, only shown approximately by the fourth referee once at the end of "regulation time"). "Stoppage time" includes substitutions, cautions (yellow and red cards) and other such actions not directly related to the flow of the game

Penalties: well, a yellow card does not result in anything as such, so it is more of a zero-yard USC. A red card forces the team to play with 10 players, so it is more severe than a football ejection.

Drop kicks: from what I've watched the game lately, yes, drop kicks are less prevalent but there are some goalies who do use it.

Offline peterparsons

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2022, 06:22:04 AM »
As a Brit, maybe I can assist.  ;)

The game clock does run contiuously, yes, including through "stoppages" (injuries, substitutions). The Referee is responsible for keeping a record of how long these last for and then adding on at least that amount once the 45 or 90 minute mark is reached, along with any time considered to have been "wasted" by either team (teams ahead in the score will often slow things down to try and run down the game clock, much as a football team ahead by one score late in the game will keep the ball inbounds and use all of the 40s play clock - if the Referee considers this time wasting to be excessive, they can, and will, issue a yellow card to a player for it, but in this World Cup I think there's been a directive just to keep adding more time on; some of the early games had unusually long added time at the end of each half). The 4th official (who manages the technical/team areas) holds up the board to indicate the minimum time allowed around the end of each half (45/90).

The playing time can go on beyond that originally announced if, for example, there are additional injuries or substitutions during added time. If there is an attacking sequence of play going on, the Referee will (these days) allow it to come to a conclusion before blowing to avoid situations such as this one: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/44500178 (much as in football where a play is allowed to complete even if the clock hits :00 in the middle of the play).

Think of yellow cards as UCs and red cards as flagrant UCs. Two yellows or one red and you're done for the game (and can't be replaced, so your team is down a player).

Drop kicks are still common, but usually at lower levels of play. It's a tactical decision. At the top level, most teams focus on retaining possession, so playing shorter passes from the goalkeeper to the defenders who then work the ball up the pitch is more common tactically. Drop kicks are usually considered a 50:50 chance as to which team wins the first header and which team gets the ball next after the header, so are likely to result in the other team gaining possession.

They do play with 11, but not with unlimited substitutions. It's more like football was back in the earlier parts of the last century. Limited substitutions and, once you go out, you can't come back in.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2022, 07:20:59 AM »
I’ve never understood why, in the most popular game in the world, the referee is the only person in the stadium who knows exactly when the game is over.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2022, 08:53:38 AM »
I’ve never understood why, in the most popular game in the world, the referee is the only person in the stadium who knows exactly when the game is over.

I think the soccer family of sports (including rugby and maaaybe Aussie and Irish?) are the only sports where the participants have only a limited idea as to when the game will be over...

Offline peterparsons

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2022, 10:26:57 AM »
They know in both codes of rugby as the game clock stops during play, so they know that, once it hits 80 minutes, the game is over when, in league, the next tackle is completed, or in union, the ball goes out of play or becomes dead for some other reason e.g. a knock-on. In essence, players in both codes know when the equivalent of the final play of the game is reached.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2022, 11:04:25 AM »
I officiated college intramural soccer, one season, I think. I knew that the ball needed to travel one full circumference forward before it could be touched again by the team that kicked off. And I knew the "play on" signal (which I used a LOT). Those games didn't have any extra time. ;)  $3 per game. Big money for a college student in the 70s. Used to take bottle return pallets (sitting by the soda machines in the dorm hallway, full of bottles) to the local grocery store and return the bottles for cash. Ashamed of that now, but the cash helped back then.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2022, 12:11:40 PM »
I’ve never understood why, in the most popular game in the world, the referee is the only person in the stadium who knows exactly when the game is over.

It wasn't actually that long ago that the Americanized version was similar. The NFL used a pistol to note the end of the quarters/half/game until 1994 because, until the merger in 1970, the stadium clock wasn't official.

Edit -- fixed link
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 10:20:58 PM by ncwingman »

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2022, 01:26:58 PM »
I think you meant https://www.footballzebras.com/2019/09/nfl100-why-did-officials-use-a-pistol-to-signal-the-end-of-the-quarter/. This article talks about how the line judge would fire a gun with blanks to end the quarter. It led to some funny stories.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2022, 06:52:37 AM »
It wasn't actually that long ago that the Americanized version was similar. The NFL used a pistol to note the end of the quarters/half/game until 1994 because, until the merger in 1970, the stadium clock wasn't official.

Edit -- fixed link

True, as I well remember.  But the scoreboard clock was fairly accurate.  In addition, both benches were informed of the exact time at the two-minute warning, and after any subsequent timeouts or scores.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2022, 07:21:47 AM »
Thanks,guys ,especially Kalle and Peter for the knowledge. I do find the timing quite casual for such important matches. I recall, in our version of football, before game clocks appeared we had the 4 minute warning. The LJ ,FG then, would keep the time on his stopwatch and attempt to announce the remaining time after every down in close games. My favorite spectator sport is ice hockey, where a green light comes on behind the goal once a period has ended. The red light - which signafies goal - can't come on of the green one has beaten it. Our referees take enough heat, I can't dream of the arguements generated by game end.
 
Kalle, I do recall that after our victory over USSR in 1980, we still needed to beat Finland for the gold  aWaRd

Peter, what are the chances of a UK/USA final  ???

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2022, 08:29:56 AM »
KNOW YOUR OPPONENTS......

As I eagerly await the opening kickoff/first pitch/jump ball/faceoff/whatever of today's match between Team USA and Netherlands, I realized that I know very little about their country. I believe they are considered a 'low country' requiring many dikes to prevent massive flooding, plenty of windmills, and some wear of wooden shoes BUT I don't  understand why they are sometimes called Holland and their people referred to as Dutch  ??? ???. Anyone who knows the answer can add to my memory bank of useless knowledge......until then...

GO TEAM USA   aWaRd

 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1 FlAg1

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2022, 08:49:31 AM »
Reading about it “on the internet,” the reason for the different names is a complicated language thing. But one thing I read is that “Holland” is a portion of the Netherlands, so it really isn’t interchangeable with “the Netherlands.”
But, your post has people like me researching and learning about the land, people and culture of a different place, and that is a good thing. Thank you.


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2022, 01:44:21 PM »
Sucks, but tEAM USA gave many a Patriot thrill  FlAg1 . I felt the Dutch had a stronger team and wish them well for the rest of the way  tiphat:. After all, to get knocked out be the strongest team on the planet leaves a positive tast.

Probably a dumb question, but 'heading the ball'appears to be a vital part of the game. NFHS and levels below, I believe, outlaw 'heading' and rightly so. Is this a worldwide restriction on kids  ??? If not, it would appear to be a disadvantage to US kids in learning an important part of the game  ???. Just muttering of an ole' duffer....

THANKS, TEAM USA, GO DUTCH  aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2022, 09:52:20 AM »
Probably a dumb question, but 'heading the ball'appears to be a vital part of the game. NFHS and levels below, I believe, outlaw 'heading' and rightly so. Is this a worldwide restriction on kids  ??? If not, it would appear to be a disadvantage to US kids in learning an important part of the game  ???. Just muttering of an ole' duffer....

For kids with still developing bodies, especially skulls, heading the ball can lead to the same sort of repeated trauma that leads to CTE. Additionally, with inexperienced players, there's an increased likelihood that two players will try to head the same ball... well, you can't have helmet to helmet contact if neither player is wearing a helmet.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2022, 10:36:10 AM »
For kids with still developing bodies, especially skulls, heading the ball can lead to the same sort of repeated trauma that leads to CTE. Additionally, with inexperienced players, there's an increased likelihood that two players will try to head the same ball... well, you can't have helmet to helmet contact if neither player is wearing a helmet.

USA is the only country in the world that has an age limit on heading the ball in soccer.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2022, 11:14:17 AM »
Thanks, NCwingman & Kelle, while I understand and support the'saftey first' attidude of high school sports and below in the U.S. , I can relate it to a couple of schools in Maine have only touch or flag football in junior high. Their adjustment to tackle football in high school appears to be much more of a challange that schools that started tackling in the lower grades  :(.

NOW WE YANKS HAVE AN EXCUSE !!  ;D

Offline peterparsons

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2022, 04:20:38 AM »
Not heading the ball at younger age groups is an increasingly common thing. In my part of England it is an automatic free kick if the ball reaches head height during a game for the equivalent of elementary school and lower age middle school players.

In Scotland, it's a skill not introduced until the U12 age group:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football-development/participation/childrens-youth-football/heading/

Scotland's even restricted it at the adult, full professional level:

https://news.yahoo.com/scottish-football-bans-heading-day-104231539.html

The technology used to manufacture the balls has improved immesurably compared to what we had in the 50s, 60s and 70s (when I first started playing) where they had habit of absorbing moisture and getting heavier while in use, and there have been a number of high profile examples of former professionals dying before their time with brain injuries that heading the ball most likely contributed to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Astle

Rugby also has problems with brain injuries to players:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55208227

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2022, 05:54:06 AM »
Thanks, Peter, for the info. I glad  :) to see that other countrys have taken a simular stance on heading. No we Yanks will have to search for another excuse  :(.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2022, 07:09:50 AM »
Lesson for all things in life:
Make no excuses. Just get better.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2022, 06:38:45 AM »
Thanks, Peter, for the info. I glad  :) to see that other countrys have taken a simular stance on heading. No we Yanks will have to search for another excuse  :(.

Seems a long time ago, but I remember when in HS, one of my teammates showed up with a football helmet that had a 2" wide, 1/4" thick, hard, clear plastic  band across the middle of his helmet, in front of his face.   What the heck!. Explained in was called a "Face Mask".  Seemed kind of weird, but a number of decades later, they don't make football helmets without them.  Lots of today's sports equipment, and/or practices, have "evolved" to REQUIRE changes for/against that which was considered "inherent"  and common to the way games were played "before".

Thankfully, as we learn more really important things about human frailties, we extend safety requirements to all sorts of sports, which allow us to keep playing games and doing things  we like and enjoy doing.

Nothing is as constant, as "change" (thankfully).

Offline SCline

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2022, 05:45:16 PM »
Clarification NFHS does not outlaw “heading” the ball

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Ole' duffer....soccer rookie.....
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2022, 12:00:57 PM »
VIVA LA FRANCE !!!
                                                                   VIVA VOTRE FUTBALL !!!
                                                 BON MATCH, N'CEST PAR  tiphat:

C- Fench student in 1963  8]