The "2-b" area?

[zebra99]

ok - I give up.  new 9-1-6-a-2-b is referenced a couple of times as an "area."  Yet, to my reading, 2-b does not describe an area, rather it defines the position of a back causing him to be restricted.

So grammatically this doesn't make any sense.  What am I missing?

Seems to me that we ought to have a clear definition of the "area" which is referred to in 9-1-6-a-3 and 4.

Especially because 9-1-6-a-3 talks about the location of an opponent!

[ref6983]

It's the tackle box.

Agree that it would have been better to just say that.

[Hawkeye]

Well, it's not exactly the tackle box.  The tackle box as defined (2-34) may extend past the 2nd lineman from the snapper, whereas the area in 2-b, only extends laterally to the outside of the 2nd lineman from the snapper or 5 yards whichever is shorter.

The area in 2-b may be as wide as the tackle box, but it could be "thinner" if the outside of the body of the 2nd lineman is less than 5 yards from the snapper.

I actually am glad that it is written this way, because it gives us a benchmark for the position of the back  that we can actually see on the field.  We no longer need to visualize the tackle box and officiate "air".  Unless the line has incredibly wide splits (which is to say, almost never), we can use the tackle as that benchmark (officially).

[Atlanta Blue]

I thought this was a question about Hamlet.

[Rulesman]

...Unless the line has incredibly wide splits (which is to say, almost never)...

You must work in a different neck-of-the-woods.

[ref6983]

Well, it's not exactly the tackle box.  The tackle box as defined (2-34) may extend past the 2nd lineman from the snapper, whereas the area in 2-b, only extends laterally to the outside of the 2nd lineman from the snapper or 5 yards whichever is shorter.

The area in 2-b may be as wide as the tackle box, but it could be "thinner" if the outside of the body of the 2nd lineman is less than 5 yards from the snapper.

I actually am glad that it is written this way, because it gives us a benchmark for the position of the back  that we can actually see on the field.  We no longer need to visualize the tackle box and officiate "air".  Unless the line has incredibly wide splits (which is to say, almost never), we can use the tackle as that benchmark (officially).

2-b defines two areas: one bounded by the outside edge of the tackles if the edge is within 5 yards from the snap, and one bounded by the tackle box. It was intended to make it clear that any player who is outside either of those areas is restricted.

Yes, a very good change that takes us back to where we were a couple of years ago in determining where a player is positioned at the snap. As for determining where a block takes place during the play, using the edge of the tackles may help or it may not depending on how the play develops.

Now moving on to "3." It tells us that a player who is restricted at the snap may never block low inside an area defined by 2-b. Since one of the areas defined by 2-b is the tackle box, then that area seems to be, by definition, included in the "no BBW area" for a restricted player and since that area is always the outer limit of 2-b, then I am certain we can say, 2-b = tackle box for purposes of "3.".

In simpler terms:

To determine a restricted player at the snap use the edge of the tackle if it is inside the tackle box. Otherwise, use the tackle box.

After the snap, use the tackle box to determine where a restricted player may never block low.

[zebra99]

ok- clear as mud now.  3 refers to the location of the opponent.  So tell me what exact location is described in 2-b that applies to the location of an opponent?  2-b refers to the tackle box which is fine and easily determined but then it states "or completely outside the frame of the body of the second linemen.....".  Are we to determine the opponent's relationship to the frame of the body of the second linemen?  That's crazy but that's how it reads.

Has anyone developed a graphical chart/image of this rule?  Would be quite helpful to us visual guys.

[ref6983]

ok- clear as mud now.  3 refers to the location of the opponent.  So tell me what exact location is described in 2-b that applies to the location of an opponent?  2-b refers to the tackle box which is fine and easily determined but then it states "or completely outside the frame of the body of the second linemen.....".  Are we to determine the opponent's relationship to the frame of the body of the second linemen?  That's crazy but that's how it reads.

Has anyone developed a graphical chart/image of this rule?  Would be quite helpful to us visual guys.

Maybe this will help:

It is illegal for a restricted player to block an opponent below the waist in the non-disintegrating tackle box.

Let me add one thing: I think that the term "tackle box" was not used in "3." because the tackle box can disintegrate during the play. The "area" that "3." talks about will not disintegrate.

[zebra99]

Maybe this will help:

It is illegal for a restricted player to block an opponent below the waist in the tackle box.

That helps but would you agree that 3 and 2-b don't say that clearly or exactly?  i.e. how does one prove that by the written rules?

[ref6983]

That helps but would you agree that 3 and 2-b don't say that clearly or exactly?  i.e. how does one prove that by the written rules?

Yes, I do agree the wording is a little unclear, but my update to the last posting may explain why "tackle box" was not used:

"I think that the term "tackle box" was not used in "3." because the tackle box can disintegrate during the play. The "area" that "3." talks about will not disintegrate."

That being said, I think my earlier posting where I detailed the area, for purposes of "3.", as being the tackle box; explained why the wording implies that "2-b = tackle box" (although probably not as understandably as I would like).

[zebra99]

So for purposes of 3 describing the location of the opponent by referring to 2-b, we are to ignore the language "...or completely outside the frame of the body of the second linemen....." despite that the rule does not so state?

[ref6983]

So for purposes of 3 describing the location of the opponent by referring to 2-b, we are to ignore the language " "or completely outside the frame of the body of the second linemen....." despite that the rule does not so state?

Yes, although, in a rather awkward way, I believe it says that you can't block low inside the area defined by the tackle box *OR* inside an area bounded by the tackles if they are within the tackle box. Since the latter area is *always* inside the tackle box then that part is redundant and/or irrelevant. Thus, I think the rule does state that.

What you cannot do is use the edge of the tackle if he is outside the tackle box in "3.".

(BTW, I know it's really "second lineman from..." but that's too much to type every time I want to talk about that.)

[zebra99]

another one (my professional training is kicking in, unfortunately):

Para. 2-c.  The phrase "anytime after the ball is was ready for play..." - in this context what does that exactly mean given that the ball is often ready for play before the offense huddles outside the "2-b area" or as non-huddling team players are returning to their next pre-snap positions?

One could argue that every player who goes in motion was at some point in time outside the "2-b area" after the ball was made ready for play.

[ref6983]

another one (my professional training is kicking in, unfortunately):

Para. 2-c.  The phrase "anytime after the ball is was ready for play..." - in this context what does that exactly mean given that the ball is often ready for play before the offense huddles outside the "2-b area" or as non-huddling team players are returning to their next pre-snap positions?

One could argue that every player who goes in motion was at some point ion time outside the "2-b area" after the ball was made ready for play.

I think that was covered in one of the plays on the CFO site:

9. Third and seven at the A-30. Back A40 enters the game after the ball is made ready for play and sets up behind the left tackle inside the tackle box. After being set for one second, A40 goes in motion to his right. At the snap he has not left the tackle box and is directly behind the right guard. He blocks below the waist against an opponent at the A-28 (a) toward his right sideline; (b) toward his left sideline; (c) straight ahead on a north/south line. RULING: (a), (b), and (c). Legal blocks. While technically A40 was outside the tackle box upon entering the game after the ball became ready for play, he satisfies the spirit of the rule for being unrestricted by always remaining inside the tackle box after coming to a set position initially.

I know it only specifies an incoming substitute, but I'd like to think common sense dictates it's true for players in the game as well.

Ex. Team A runs the no huddle. #25 lines up as a wide out on 1st down. 2 yard gain up the middle. Umpire puts the ball down and clears which makes the ball "ready for play" before #25 gets inside the tackles on his way to becoming a tailback on 2nd down.

I just have to believe we are not going to make him restricted on this play if he subsequently goes in motion.

And yes, I know the rules don't support that literally, but the CFO play seems to mitigate that.

[Andrew McCarthy]

I can't understand why we need to know where he came from and when before he sets and goes in motion.  It's easy with a DVR but we don't have that luxury on the field.

[jg-me]

The rule change actually refers to a back going in motion after the RFP. Players who are returning to the formation or huddle following the previous play after the ball is RFP have not established themselves as a back or lineman yet. Let the player establish a position then use that location and player status be your guideline to determine if that player is restricted or not at the snap.

[ref6983]

The rule change actually refers to a back going in motion after the RFP. Players who are returning to the formation or huddle following the previous play after the ball is RFP have not established themselves as a back or lineman yet. Let the player establish a position then use that location and player status be your guideline to determine if that player is restricted or not at the snap.

All true, but paragraph 4 tells us that only a "player" who has never been outside the the 2-b area can be unrestricted if he is in motion at the snap. It doesn't mention "back" or "lineman". This wording is what created the need for the play in the CFO document and gives us the ability do exactly what you stated in your last sentence.

[FLBJ]

Someone is listening! An update from the man himself...

2. Blocking by a restricted player
Rule 9-1-6-a-3 (first sentence) reads in the original language:
A restricted player may not block below the waist against any opponent who is inside the area in paragraph 2-b.

This statement is somewhat ambiguous in that the area of restriction may possibly change depending on the formation.  The intent of the rule is that a restricted player should not be able to block low inside the tackle box.  While the difference between the two is small in practice, specifying the tackle box will make the rule easier to coach and to officiate.

Rule 9-1-6-a-3 now reads:

A restricted player may not block below the waist against any opponent who is inside the tackle box. 

[El Macman]

And there is a little more. Look for it on the CFO site later today.

[El Macman]

And there is a little more. Look for it on the CFO site later today.

It is on the CFO site now.