Numbering Exceptions

[TXMike]

Has anyone seen anything that would suggest the numbering exceptions on a scrimmage kick formation "kick in" as soon as a team lines up, even if the snapper is not tiuching the ball nor does he have hands at or below the knees?

Example:

Team has 11 players, all wearing eligible numbers.They break from the huddle and go to initial positions, with 3 players standing to the left and 3 to the right of the person who is standing at the ball.  There is a potential punter 10 yards behind the ball, and 3 "personal protectors" a few yards in front of him.  They then shiftsuch that the leftmost player steps back a yard uncovering the "tackle".  At the same time, one of the personalprotectors goes to the right side and sets up on the line.  The snapper then goes down to put his hands on the ball.  The left "tackle" goes downfield to catch a pass.  Legal or illegal?

[HoustonUmp]

Is the A11 coming back again?

[Kalle]

The rule language is pretty explicit, so I don't really see how the play you describe could be flagged, provided that it is a fourth down (or otherwise a clear scrimmage kick situation).

[SanDiegoStryker]

I believe they do "kick in" at the initial line up in NFHS. Maybe that's what you are thinking of? The numbering exception says that a player in the game under the exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down. Different for NCAA?

[El Macman]

I wouldn't bet on anything related to numbering exceptions.

I don't think you can find clear and indisutible rule support for RR's ruling in 2012 Bulletin 2, play 8, but he has made it 'retroactively' illegal to become uncovered, even if they are not in a scrimmage kick formation at the time the player in question is covered. The rule language is very clear that the numbering exceptions rule applies 1) when Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation (as defined), and 2) at the snap. In the bulletin play, they are not in a SKF at the time the player in question is covered, so how can he be considerd an 'exception'? If he's not an exception, then why is he not permitted to be on the end following a shift?

I know RR is trying to make it dificult (or impossible) for Team A to abuse the numbering exception rule and confuse Team B with formation trickery. That is well and good. But I think it would have been better to acknowledge the gap in the rule language, and since problems with this rule are really relatively few, leave it alone, and just change the rule for 2013 to make it illegal for any back or end (at the snap) numbered other than 50-79 to have been in an interior line position anytime after the ball is ready for play, when the ball is eventually snapped from a SKF.

[TXMike]

Let's just go back to the colored pullover jereseys for the ineligibles!   

[mccormicw]

Until the center puts his hands at or below his knees, the other players are effectively a just a bunch of guys players standing on the offensive side of the neutral zone.  Until the snapper is established, you can't have linemen. 

[El Macman]

Until the center puts his hands at or below his knees, the other players are effectively a just a bunch of guys players standing on the offensive side of the neutral zone.  Until the snapper is established, you can't have linemen.

Before RR made the unsupported interpretation in Bulletin 2, play 8, I would have made the same proclamation. But, like I said, I wouldn't bet on anything regarding numbering exceptions, except that an elgible number that was never positioned between the ends (snapper established or not) would be eligible. Beyond that, I'm holding my chips.

[TXMike]

As a refresher,  McCormick will post the the Bulletin play

[mccormicw]

Before RR made the unsupported interpretation in Bulletin 2, play 8, I would have made the same proclamation. But, like I said, I wouldn't bet on anything regarding numbering exceptions, except that an elgible number that was never positioned between the ends (snapper established or not) would be eligible. Beyond that, I'm holding my chips.

I am only going to address the portion of TXMikes question that asks about the requirements for the snapper to have his hands at or below his knees for the numbering exception to kick in.  In RR's play (below), he uses the word snapper.  The snapper is not established solely by standing over the ball.  There is no snapper until a player stands over the ball with his hands at or below his knees.  If the player standing over the ball does not have his hands at or below his knees, you dont have a snapper so you cant have a lineman (by rule) much less restricted lineman or originally ineligible players.

IAW RR's comments, once you have a snapper (requires a player to be over the ball with his hands at or below his knees), you have established originally ineligible players.


Fourth and goal at the B-2. After the snapper is over the ball Team A assumes a formation with the following players on the line of scrimmage, left to right: 12, 95, 76, 62, 40 (snapper), 31, 42. In the backfield are 94, 77, and 96 with 25 in a shotgun formation. They then shift (no false start) into a place-kick formation with 25 becoming the holder, kneeling at the B-10, and 94 moving into the kicking position. Both 77 and 96 move to the line of scrimmage and 12 and 42 move into the backfield, so that theline reads (left to right): 95, 76, 62, 40 (snapper), 31, 77, 96. The ball is snapped to the holder and the field goal is successful.
RULING: Foul, illegal formation. It is legal for Team A to have fewer than five players on the line numbered 50-79 if they are in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap. However, when 40 is established as the snapper, 95, 40 and 31 are all exceptions to the numbering rule since they are ineligible by position (not on the end of the line). They remain ineligible throughout the down, they must be on the line and they must not be on the end of the line at the snap. Because after the shift 95 is uncovered at the left end position, this formation is illegal. (7-1-4-a-5)

[TXMike]

I think the concern is that "a formation" is also not, by definition, a "scrimmage kick formation" yet RR has seemed to say that if they are in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap, they were in one from the time the snapper was established.  That is seemingly as illogical as saying there is no snapper until there is "a snapper."

[mccormicw]

I think the concern is that "a formation" is also not, by definition, a "scrimmage kick formation" yet RR has seemed to say that if they are in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap, they were in one from the time the snapper was established.  That is seemingly as illogical as saying there is no snapper until there is "a snapper."

Probably beating a dead horse but RR states when the "snapper is over the ball".  By definition a player just standing over a ball is not a "snapper over the ball".  However, a player standing over the ball with his hands at or below the knees is a "snapper over the ball".

Additionally, the rules state "In a scrimmage kick formation at the snap (Rule 2-16-10) Team A may
have fewer than five linemen numbered 50-79, subject to the following
conditions".  So if you have a scrimmage kick formation at the snap you must have followed the following requirements - "Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule when the snapper is established."

In practice, my crew doesnt worry about numbering exceptions until we have a snapper (player with hands at or below his knees) over the ball.  Once the snapper is established, we dont care if it is a scrimmage kick formation (yet), we just note who are numbering exceptions.  If the formation shifts after the snapper is established, our numbering exceptions must remain numbering exceptions (by position) if there is a scrimmage kick formation at the snap.  The offensive team can avoid the requirement by shifting to a non-srimmage kick formation and by ensuring they have 5 players numbered 50-79 on the line.