Safety or Not

[JasonTX]

This play was previously discussed here.  http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=9781.msg94790#msg94790

I sent off this version to Rogers Redding:

Try from the B-3.  Team A attempts to kick a FG and it is blocked.  The ball is caught in the end zone by Team B.  The Team B player runs out of the end zone and retreats back into the end zone.  Trying to avoid being tackled he passes the ball forward from behind the goalline.  The ball is caught by a teammate at the B-2 where he is tackled.  Ruling?

Some on the prior discussion was ruling safety.  Here is what Rogers replied with.

"By Rule 8-3-4, the penalty is declined by rule.  The try is over."

[Hawkeye]

Since the pass was complete, the result of the play has the ball out of the EZ, the foul is declined by rule ... try over, I agree with that.

What if the illegal forward pass is incomplete?  (hint: 7-3-7-c)

[Kalle]

What if the illegal forward pass is incomplete?  (hint: 7-3-7-c)

Hah, same result. No score, try is over. Should have remembered that when I objected to the ruling RR supports.

[Diablo]

Hah, same result. No score, try is over. Should have remembered that when I objected to the ruling RR supports.

Not sure about that.
What if, instead of an illegal forward pass, the B player fumbled the ball in the EZ and it went OB at the B-2?

[Kalle]

Not sure about that.
What if, instead of an illegal forward pass, the B player fumbled the ball in the EZ and it went OB at the B-2?

Rule 7-3-7-c Exception says that if the penalty for an illegal forward pass is declined, the ball belongs to team A at the previous spot. Thus, the ball is not dead in the team B end zone with team B being responsible, and no safety.

A fumble forward and out of bounds belongs to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble (7-2-4-b-1). Thus, the ball is dead in the team B end zone with team B being responsible, safety, one point for team A.

[Hawkeye]

Rule 7-3-7-c Exception says that if the penalty for an illegal forward pass is declined, the ball belongs to team A at the previous spot. Thus, the ball is not dead in the team B end zone with team B being responsible, and no safety.

Can we get technical here and say that the offended team didn't decline, rule 8-3-4 did    Then the ball belongs to team B in their EZ and they are responsible for it being there.


This exception would make a lot more sense to me if it only applied to team A illegal passes.  It is very, very odd that after a change of possession and a declined penalty, we would award the ball to team A at the previous spot.  I can't think of any other rule that has a result this strange.  Also, what's the next down after team A declines the penalty (assuming from a scrimmage down, not a try).  The continuity of downs is broken (5-1-4-a), and without an accepted penalty, that always results in the next down being first down or a free kick.  I can't imagine that the next down is 1st!

Play: A's ball 3rd and goal on the B-4.  QB A12 drops back and throws a legal forward pass into the EZ where it is intercepted by B20.  B20 runs out to the B-1 and then reverses field back into the EZ.  As B20 us about to be tackled in the EZ he throws a forward pass toward B23 who is at the B-2, the pass falls incomplete.

Ruling:
- If the penalty is accepted, then it is a safety, 1 points for A.
- If declined, A's ball 4th and goal on the B-4?  Clock ready?

[TxSkyBolt]

Play: A's ball 3rd and goal on the B-4.  QB A12 drops back and throws a legal forward pass into the EZ where it is intercepted by B20.  B20 runs out to the B-1 and then reverses field back into the EZ.  As B20 us about to be tackled in the EZ he throws a forward pass toward B23 who is at the B-2, the pass falls incomplete.

Ruling:
- If the penalty is accepted, then it is a safety, 1 points for A.
- If declined, A's ball 4th and goal on the B-4?  Clock ready?

This would be a 2-point safety not a 1-point safety as its not during a try down.  (I think that's what you meant to say)

A declined penalty would leave B in possession of the ball in it's own endzone (they intercepted the ball with clean hands).  Since they were responsible for the ball being in their own endzone when it was declared dead, that too would be a safety, no?

[Andrew McCarthy]

The rule does not reference Team A:

When an illegal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing
team at the spot of the pass (Exception: If the offended team declines the
penalty for an illegal pass thrown from the end zone, the ball shall next be
put in play at the previous spot.) (A.R. 7-3-7-II-III)

[Kalle]

This exception would make a lot more sense to me if it only applied to team A illegal passes.  It is very, very odd that after a change of possession and a declined penalty, we would award the ball to team A at the previous spot.

I think this is an oversight and I'm not at all sure what RR would rule should you send the try play to him. But, he has already ruled that team B does get an advantage by fouling if they are in a situation during a try where they are facing a safety, so I think that he would rule likewise with an incomplete illegal forward pass.

I can't think of a situation where team A would want to decline the penalty for a team B illegal incomplete forward pass, except to have the period end, and in that case it doesn't really matter what the result is. The exception is fully geared for a 4th down play so team B can choose between a safety and having the ball close to the team A goal line (it used to be that there was no choice), so it might as well apply only to passes before a change of team possession.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Rule 2 - SECTION 25. Spots / Spot Where Run Ends
ARTICLE 8. The spot where the run ends is at that point:
d. Where an illegal forward pass is thrown.

Rule 2 - SECTION 30. Play Classification / Running Play and Run
ARTICLE 4. c. If a ball carrier loses possession by a fumble, backward pass or illegal forward pass, the spot where the run ends (Rule 2-25-8) is the yard line where the ball carrier loses possesion. The running play includes the run and the loose-ball action before a player gains or regains possession or the ball is declared dead (A.R. 2-30-4-I and II).

Why isn't the answer to the original case play covered by Rule 2?  Isn't this play simply a running play during a try that ends with the ball in B's end zone and B is responsible for it being there?  I don't see where the penalty component has anything to do with the play since it's the Rule 2 language that defines the end of the run.  The run ends in B's EZ, B put the ball there, we should have a 1 point safety.

[Kalle]

The run ends in B's EZ, B put the ball there, we should have a 1 point safety.

That would be exactly true if there was no exception in 7-3-7-c (or if that exception didn't apply to team B).

[Diablo]

When an illegal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing
team at the spot of the pass (Exception: If the offended team declines the
penalty for an illegal pass thrown from the end zone, the ball shall next be
put in play at the previous spot.) (A.R. 7-3-7-II-III)

As highlighted above, if the exception were to apply, the ball would put be in play at the previous spot.  Given the play on the table occurred during a try down, that would create a conflict with 8-3-6 - the next down after a try is a kickoff at the A-35.  Hence, I don't think the exception applies to try downs nor after a change of possession.

[Andrew McCarthy]

I don't think the exception applies to try downs nor after a change of possession.

I agree with this.  RR should add this to the exception.

[NVFOA_Ump]

As highlighted above, if the exception were to apply, the ball would put be in play at the previous spot.  Given the play on the table occurred during a try down, that would create a conflict with 8-3-6 - the next down after a try is a kickoff at the A-35.  Hence, I don't think the exception applies to try downs nor after a change of possession.

Have to agree applying the exception here on trys or COP plays is not logical and is not in keeping with the intent of the rules.  I still believe that the penalty being "declined by rule" references the penalty enforcement (LOD + 5 yards from the spot of the foul), that does not change the fact that the spot of the foul is the end of the run in the EZ.  Otherwise, we are directly rewarding team B for committing the IFP foul, and that is IMO and as Diablo notes in conflict with the rules.

[TxSkyBolt]

The rule does not reference Team A:

When an illegal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing
team at the spot of the pass (Exception: If the offended team declines the
penalty for an illegal pass thrown from the end zone, the ball shall next be
put in play at the previous spot.) (A.R. 7-3-7-II-III)

But I think that's certainly the intent that it applies to A only.

[Morningrise]

Rom Gilbert has this as a rule change request.

http://romgilbert.us/rc13-737c.pdf

He even posits an example where Team A could actually want the very letter of the exception.

[fencewire]

I hope they take his advice and act on this change request...

http://romgilbert.us/rc13-916.pdf