Author Topic: Blocking before passing and DPI  (Read 14526 times)

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JOSivtoft

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Blocking before passing and DPI
« on: July 05, 2013, 09:32:26 AM »
Hi

I have a few questions regarding this part of 9.3.4.c " ... Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal"

First, a yard line is a thin plane so which part of the players body determine if they are on the same yard line? Helmet, the upper body except arms or anything?.

Second, continuous contact is illegal. What is continuous? Is it a question about timing or distance?
If a defensive player manage to keep his opponent in front of him during the play by continuous blocking him, is that a foul? Or is it a foul if the defensive player blocks him toward the sideline continuously, say 6-7 yards, while the opponent tries to get down field, provided that he never occupies the same yard-line.

Finally. in 7.2.8.c.1  It is not defensive pass interference - When a Team B player legally contacts an opponent before the pass is thrown.

How does this comply with  9.3.4.c. If a defensive player blocks his opponent legally according to 9.3.4.c, when the pass is thrown, is it then automatically DPI provided that the ball is thrown against the offensive player. Or no foul, because the block start just before the pass and is ongoing when the pass is thrown but the block is not illegal because it is not continuously enough? Again what is continuously?

BR


 

Offline sj_31

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 11:20:03 AM »
This used to be more difficult for me to conceptualize until I had someone explain it to me in "real world" terms.

A receiver is going to do one of two basic things: block or run a route. (He may also run a runoff/decoy route but that really doesn't matter here.) you should be able to tell almost immediately what his intentions are at the snap by his body language. If he wants to block, then the defender has every right to ward him off by pretty much all means necessary that isn't a personal foul in nature. One thing in this case that you should be aware of is OPI. If the receiver is blocking and the ball is thrown to a teammate in the vicinity (beyond the LOS) then you have the potential for an offensive foul.
On the other hand,  if the receiver wants to run a route then 9-3-4 becomes more relevant. Basically if a receiver wants to run a route then the defender doesn't get the right to do all of the things like "push, pull, ward off, etc...." So how do you define in writing what running a route is? The answer is by inferring from the "same yard line" clause. If the receiver gets to the same yard line then obviously he's not trying to block by getting between the runner and the defender and therefore the DB does not have the contact latitude as described above when it's a running play. In this instance, then there is a reasonably fine line about what the defender can and can't do.
At the start of every passing play, the receiver has a job to do and the defender has a job to do. The receiver's job is to run the prescribed route. The defender of course does not know this route. Furthermore, the defender has an assigned area of responsibility based on the coverage. He also knows where he does and does not have help. For example, a CB knows that if the FS does not have a receiver to cover and is truly free, then he has help to the inside. Conversely, if the safeties all have a man, then the CB's only help is the sideline. Through time (if not already), you will be able to read the coverages and the DB's positioning and body language prior to the snap and figure it where the DB wants his receiver to go. If the WR goes in that direction, you will see less contact as the DB is simply going to let him go that way. It's when the WR wants to go where the DB doesn't want him to go that you'll need to rule on the concepts in 9-3-4. Proper DB techniques usually equal solid coverage and no fouls. Sloppy technique and good WR technique equals more potential for a foul. Examples are almost always going to be defensive holding in that the DB will get beat and he'll hook the receiver as he goes by. Be careful about the illegal use of hands and over officiating the "continuous contact". I have yet to see a supervisor show me a solid example of that foul and many have told me to stay away from it. (If there is anyone on the board who has a good video example of an illegal use of hands foul on a receiver please post). Usually what you will see with "continuous contact" is that it will turn into a DPI/cutoff or similar because the ball will be in the air pretty quick. If the ball isn't thrown to your receiver then you don't have a foul, but you do need to have a preventive "talk to" with your DB about too much contact, especially if it would have been a foul had the pass come your way.

Long story short: 10-yard fouls (and PI) are advantage/disadvantage fouls. The best advice I can give you in these situations is to officiate the result, do not officiate just the action. If you see contact that rises to the level of a foul, the very next thing to do is find the ball. If it's away from you then it's probably not a foul. If the ball is to you or the QB wanted to go to your side but had to adjust because of your illegal action then that's a foul.
Personal fouls should always be called regardless of where the ball is.

Hope this helps. I know it's a rather lengthy response to what you were probably hoping was a simple answer, but the higher the level of play, the more we need to apply higher level concepts. What is a long-winded explanation here is actually pretty simple and quick on the field.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 12:43:01 PM »
Some additional thoughts.

- "Occupies the same yardline" more or less means that the defender can't block directly towards a sideline. As this is an advantage foul, I'd say err on the side of a foul.

- Continuous contact is what it means. It would have to be an overpowering block, just bumping does not qualify. One second isn't continuous, three would be (I have yet to see this).

- A legal block can turn into DPI the very instant the pass is thrown. When the ball is in the air most types of intentional contact are illegal.

And at the end of the day - do what your supervisor wants you to do.

jimcore

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 06:55:34 PM »
Really good stuff 31, nicely stated.

Korean_Hap

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 02:49:12 AM »
The play that started this discussion here in Sweden is at 1:20 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirSNb6WxAI

Is there a foul on this play? No flag on the field as far as I can see.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2013, 03:37:45 AM »
The play that started this discussion here in Sweden is at 1:20 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirSNb6WxAI

Is there a foul on this play? No flag on the field as far as I can see.

Looks close to me. It's either a non-catchable pass and no DPI, or it could be that the blocks during the pass prevented the receiver to go for the ball, thus DPI.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 08:30:01 AM »
I'm just an Umpire, but that looks like DPI to me. Can't block a receiver when the ball is in the air.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 06:34:40 AM »
I'm just an Umpire, but that looks like DPI to me. Can't block a receiver when the ball is in the air.

Also a U but I've got to agree here - once the ball is in the air, especially when it's in the immediate area of an eligible receiver, there is no amount of intentional contact against that receiver that's allowable based on my understanding of the rules.  Once the ball is in the air, the defense needs to be hands off.
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Offline Etref

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 07:47:30 AM »
I'm just an Umpire, but that looks like DPI to me. Can't block a receiver when the ball is in the air.

Question is:

As an umpire, if that happened near you would you flag it?
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 07:49:41 AM »
Also a U but I've got to agree here - once the ball is in the air, especially when it's in the immediate area of an eligible receiver, there is no amount of intentional contact against that receiver that's allowable based on my understanding of the rules.  Once the ball is in the air, the defense needs to be hands off.
So you are saying a DB cannot even put his hand on the back of a receiver while the ball is in the air under ANY circumstance?
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 08:42:01 AM »
So you are saying a DB cannot even put his hand on the back of a receiver while the ball is in the air under ANY circumstance?

As with most of our rules including DPI we have the gray area of advantage/disadvantage judgment that comes into play.  Certainly a hand touching a receiver in a way that does not appear to impede the player in any way would not generate a flag since it would be pretty hard to get to the I part of DPI.  My point was more to start with a guideline of no contact while the ball is in the air, then if there is contact the judgment part comes into play.  I would add that this should be in the "when in question it's a foul" category.  The referenced play here pretty clearly is not incidental, no disadvantage type contact.
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Diablo

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 05:32:57 PM »
The play that started this discussion here in Sweden is at 1:20 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirSNb6WxAI
Is there a foul on this play? No flag on the field as far as I can see.

Tough-near impossible call by the H.  He's moving and doesn't have the ideal, wide view.
S should have flagged it.   

Offline InsideTheStripes

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 05:43:04 PM »
The play that started this discussion here in Sweden is at 1:20 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirSNb6WxAI

Is there a foul on this play? No flag on the field as far as I can see.

That's DPI.

If the ball had not yet been thrown, I think the action at the 2-3 yard line qualifies as illegal use of the hands.  They occupy the same yard line from the 3 until the receiver is forced OOB and at that point there's no way A1 can be seen as a potential blocker.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 06:24:46 PM »
Tough-near impossible call by the H.  He's moving and doesn't have the ideal, wide view.
S should have flagged it.

Certainly the catchable vs. non-catchable part of the question is a tough one to read from the video clip.  Due to both the motion, and the tight perspective of the play, it would have been ideal if a fellow official with a better vantage point helped out.  Given the open question of was the pass actually catchable assuming the contact did not occur a little help here (IMHO) is required.
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Offline Etref

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 07:07:32 PM »
Certainly the catchable vs. non-catchable part of the question is a tough one to read from the video clip.  Due to both the motion, and the tight perspective of the play, it would have been ideal if a fellow official with a better vantage point helped out.  Given the open question of was the pass actually catchable assuming the contact did not occur a little help here (IMHO) is required.

My thinking is if you have to "question" whether or not it was catchable..............it was catchable!  yEs:
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 08:45:34 PM »
My thinking is if you have to "question" whether or not it was catchable..............it was catchable!  yEs:

I would tend to agree, so we need a flag on this one.  Maybe we actually did get some help and had a flag here but we simply don't know from the video available?
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Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2013, 10:42:25 PM »
The play that started this discussion here in Sweden is at 1:20 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirSNb6WxAI

Is there a foul on this play? No flag on the field as far as I can see.
This play is on the national training video (passing play #20) and RR says "we miss a big-time defensive pass interference here."

Offline ref6983

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 09:41:45 AM »
A little disturbing that anyone would think this is not a foul. Not even close.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 11:09:03 AM »
A little disturbing that anyone would think this is not a foul. Not even close.

You are right, now that I really look at the tape, the ball passes within two yards of the receiver, he could have easily made the catch if not blocked while the ball was in the air.

T.C. Welton

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2013, 09:04:36 AM »
DPI 100% of the time...then a likely UNS.

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Blocking before passing and DPI
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2013, 08:53:58 AM »
REPLY: Don't see how there would be any question about this play...DPI! Look at the receiver's legs and feet as the ball is approaching. He couldn't even maintain his balance as the ball approached because of the defenders 'stiff arm' to his shoulder.
Bob M.