Author Topic: Live Ball, Dead Ball?  (Read 12795 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RunRickyRun

  • Guest
Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« on: October 05, 2013, 03:40:14 PM »
4th and 18 at B32.  A is flagged for illegal motion at the snap.  Play ends with an A player advancing into endzone while being horse collar tackled.  The grasp of the collar took place in the field but he was taken to the ground in the endzone.

The first foul is obviously live ball and will preclude A from scoring on the play.  However, the ball status of the second foul seems to have significant consequences.  By my understanding...

If live ball, both penalties offset and we replay 4th down.

If dead ball, both penalties are assessed and the result is an automatic first down for A.

What you got?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 4200
  • FAN REACTION: +107/-351
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2013, 06:39:23 AM »
We have 2 live ball fouls so we'll have a replay of 4th down.  IMO since you are clear that the horse collar was "in process" while the ball is live outside the EZ we would call it a live ball foul.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Diablo

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2013, 09:09:19 AM »
4th and 18 at B32.  A is flagged for illegal motion at the snap.  Play ends with an A player advancing into endzone while being horse collar tackled.  The grasp of the collar took place in the field but he was taken to the ground in the endzone.

If dead ball, both penalties are assessed and the result is an automatic first down for A.

What you got?

Why are you giving Team A first down?

PS  Cool hound !!  Is he Ricky or your avatar? :)

Offline HoustonUmp

  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-0
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2013, 09:57:02 AM »
Team A would receive the automatic 1st down because of PF penalty....if you deemed that it was a dead ball when it occurred.

Diablo

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 10:04:39 AM »
Team A would receive the automatic 1st down because of PF penalty....if you deemed that it was a dead ball when it occurred.

Shoot !!  I forgot about the Team A foul.

RunRickyRun

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 11:00:20 AM »
We have 2 live ball fouls so we'll have a replay of 4th down.  IMO since you are clear that the horse collar was "in process" while the ball is live outside the EZ we would call it a live ball foul.
While I appreciate this point, we've had a couple of odd-ball HCT flags in our chapter.  It has been made clear by the powers that be that a HCT is not a foul unless/until it is taken to the ground.  Therefore the foul occurred after the score and is therefore a deadball foul.  At least that's how we ruled it.

RunRickyRun

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 11:03:40 AM »
PS  Cool hound !!  Is he Ricky or your avatar? :)

That's Stevie Ray, and he's very cool!  ;)

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 4200
  • FAN REACTION: +107/-351
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 11:09:40 AM »
What would you have if the foul was a facemask with the same scenario?   B clearly grabs the facemask in the field of play at the 1 yard line just before the A ball carrier crosses goal line, and while the ball carrier is in the EZ we have the twist and pull component of the foul?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

maven

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 11:12:18 AM »
While I appreciate this point, we've had a couple of odd-ball HCT flags in our chapter.  It has been made clear by the powers that be that a HCT is not a foul unless/until it is taken to the ground.  Therefore the foul occurred after the score and is therefore a deadball foul.  At least that's how we ruled it.

I agree with the interp that it's not a foul until the opponent is brought to the ground. Grabbing the collar, pulling the collar, by themselves are not fouls.

Taking the runner to the ground, however, is the END of the act. To determine live-ball/dead-ball, you need to consider the ENTIRE act, which begins when the collar is grabbed and the runner pulled downward. If the act begins in the field of play, HCT should be ruled a live-ball foul.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3445
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-35
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 11:23:01 AM »
Taking the runner to the ground, however, is the END of the act. To determine live-ball/dead-ball, you need to consider the ENTIRE act, which begins when the collar is grabbed and the runner pulled downward. If the act begins in the field of play, HCT should be ruled a live-ball foul.

As this is a safety foul, I'd say that the spot of the foul is the forwardmost point of the act. In this case it is the end zone, so it would be a dead ball foul.

RunRickyRun

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 11:59:23 AM »
What would you have if the foul was a facemask with the same scenario?   B clearly grabs the facemask in the field of play at the 1 yard line just before the A ball carrier crosses goal line, and while the ball carrier is in the EZ we have the twist and pull component of the foul?

Tougher sell since the point of the pull/twist is less obvious than the point of the tackle, but my thought process would likely be the same.  The only caveat in this scenario is the idea that "we're not THAT good!" -- basically, we should officiate the obvious actions and not try to split hairs where we can avoid it.

Both HCT and facemask are typically live ball fouls, so the default enforcement would be as a live ball foul.  However, the timing of the foul relative to the score complicates matters greatly.  Since the score ends the play, what would normally be simple live ball actions are clearly done in a dead ball situation.

There may not be a definitive answer in writing, but without information to the contrary I'm comfortable with dead ball enforcement.

maven

  • Guest
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »
As this is a safety foul, I'd say that the spot of the foul is the forwardmost point of the act. In this case it is the end zone, so it would be a dead ball foul.

I agree with this as a general rule, but I'm not convinced it applies when the act is completed in the EZ.

The closest analogous case would be a HCT that starts inbounds and is completed OOB. That should be penalized as a live-ball foul, and for the same reason. The illegal act began while the ball was live.

Offline TxSkyBolt

  • *
  • Posts: 2007
  • FAN REACTION: +45/-46
Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 03:47:57 PM »
Live ball

Offline Welpe

  • *
  • Posts: 1860
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-11
Re: Re: Live Ball, Dead Ball?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 12:10:38 AM »
Live ball

I agree. A HCT requires an immediate pull down so if he is grabbed in the field of play he needs to be pulled immediately. That would be the start of the illegal action in my view.