Things learned from today's blowout

[StudyingFutureZebra]

Most of where I make my mechanics observations is the home games here at Western Michigan, and I learned a few things today, among them:

Please verify, but if a receiving team player makes the incomplete pass signal  on a punt return, is that the same as a fair catch? On a punt, Ball State's returner made the incomplete, "Get away" signal and then fielded the punt when it rolled his way. He ran about a yard and a half with it and got his clock cleaned. WMU player was called for a dead ball personal foul. If my memory serves me correctly, I thought it was illegal to take more than two steps, barring momentum, after securing a fair catch.

If there is no huddle, and the defense has 12 on the field, at what point do you call illegal substitution?

Is sticking your fingers inside eye opening in front of the eyes of another player's helmet considered a facemask/hands to the face? I saw that happen and it wasn't called.

On an unrelated note, the umpire in today's game has a cannon. I don't know how much the weights on the flag are, but he was throwing that thing more than 50 yards. I was impressed.

[JasonTX]

The "get away" signal is an invalid signal.  Once he or a teammate gains possession the ball is dead.  Two steps are permitted to enable the B player to come to a stop or to regain balance. A third or subsequent
step inbounds is subject to penalty from where the ball is caught or recovered. If the B player is tackled, the tackle is disregarded unless deemed unnecessarily rough or is so late that the tackler should know that there
was no intention to advance.

The 12th player has 3 seconds to leave the huddle or the offensive formation.  At 4 seconds it is a foul for illegal substitution.

To have a foul for facemask, it (facemask or helmet opening) must be grabbed and pulled or twisted.

[psv]

If there is no huddle, and the defense has 12 on the field, at what point do you call illegal substitution?

The defense realistically has until the center puts his hand on the ball to get the 12th guy off the field.  Once that happens, the snap becomes imminent.  If the 12th player still isn't trying to get off the field, flag comes out, offense gets +5 and we move on to the next play.

[JasonTX]

I just realized you were asking about defense with 12 men and not the offense.

[StudyingFutureZebra]

I just realized you were asking about defense with 12 men and not the offense.

Yeah that's why I asked because obviously, if you break the huddle with 12, that's getting blown dead instantly, but I didn't know at what point you call it on the defense.

[Tobbe56]

3.5.3.b
Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.

Canīt find a definition of snap being imminent. Iīd say that the center is set and QB started his cadence

[StudyingFutureZebra]

They blew the play dead before the offense had even broken the huddle. I didn't have a good view of the defense, as I was at the 50 in the first row, and the offense had the ball 2nd and goal at the 2-yard line.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If there is no huddle, and the defense has 12 on the field, at what point do you call illegal substitution?

Team B (the defense) has basically the same "reaction time" as the offense.  If team B has 12 on the field for 3-5 seconds and no one is making any attempt to leave then we should have a flag.  They cannot wait until team A (the offense) gets set to then determine which player will leave.  If we're in a hurry-up situation and the 12th B player has not been on the field for 3-5 seconds then we should have a flag at the very latest prior to the snap.

[James]

I had this on the weekend.
Coming out of a timeout, D briefly had 12 on the field, but adjusted well before the offense was near the line. No way this draws a flag. Team A coach screaming for a flag 'Defense broke the huddle with 12'

3 plays later - A is preparing for a punt, and B has 12 on the field. A is over the ball getting set. I have counted 12, but am in the middle of doing my second count, when team B coach (who wanted a flag for the defense breaking the huddle with 12) gets in a timeout. They had realized the problem before I had confirmed it. My hand was already on my flag, but I think they can buy out of the foul. Letter of the rule might be different, but it doesn't bring anything to the efficient management of the game to call this foul, and B did not gain any advantage.

[Kalle]

Letter of the rule might be different, but it doesn't bring anything to the efficient management of the game to call this foul, and B did not gain any advantage.

I would like to have the rules changed so that the team could buy their way out of a DOG or DB SUI penalty with a time out.

[Fatman325]

SFZ
Here are a couple of suggestions to help your career as an official. If you are going to post questions on a discussion board I suggest that you phrase them so that the emphasis is not to shed a negative light on the officials who made the call. You should recognize that you probably have less experience and a different angle than the guys on the field. If you get labeled as a guy who is critical of others you will probably find that you do not progress up the ladder despite the talent that you possess.
Secondly I would offer that you absolutely need to write the play with no bias and accurate facts. I just viewed the punt play that you described and the receiver took a knee immediately after catching the ball. There were no yard and a half as you described and if anything he moved backward which is not an advance. It was a relatively easy LTP call.
Be careful about being the guy who is looking to be critical of others in public.
Best of luck in your advancement.

[StudyingFutureZebra]

SFZ
Here are a couple of suggestions to help your career as an official. If you are going to post questions on a discussion board I suggest that you phrase them so that the emphasis is not to shed a negative light on the officials who made the call. You should recognize that you probably have less experience and a different angle than the guys on the field. If you get labeled as a guy who is critical of others you will probably find that you do not progress up the ladder despite the talent that you possess.
Secondly I would offer that you absolutely need to write the play with no bias and accurate facts. I just viewed the punt play that you described and the receiver took a knee immediately after catching the ball. There were no yard and a half as you described and if anything he moved backward which is not an advance. It was a relatively easy LTP call.
Be careful about being the guy who is looking to be critical of others in public.
Best of luck in your advancement.

Okay that one was meant as an honest question. I saw the play once, and it was based off what I remembered seeing. Do you have the link to the video?

This wasn't intended to be biased, rather my observations based on what I had known the rules to be, based on what I saw.

[Fatman325]

Unfortunately the video is captive and is not able to be shared.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Most MAC games can be replayed on espn3 or Watch ESPN or whatever they call it these days.

[Fatman325]

7:10 of the 2nd if someone wants to look it up

[Tobbe56]

7:10 of the 2nd if someone wants to look it up

http://youtu.be/eqmOH9SA-0E

[psv]

http://youtu.be/eqmOH9SA-0E

So, there is no signal or anything (as previously discussed).  The returner caught the ball and went immediately to a knee.

If you pause it right there, the covering team has already started their tackle.  It really isnt even a full second from catch to contact.  The hit actually happened almost simultanously with the whistle.  (I use a finger whistle so it definitely would have happened before I blew my whistle.) 

This is one of those calls that is left up to the eyes of the beholder.  The rule is the rule, but how it gets applied will vary from official to official.  Seeing this in real time once, I probably let this go.  The covering official felt there was enough time to stop and felt the action unneccisary. 

There are some calls in the rule book that are just left open to interpretation (meaning, how did the covering official see the play and how did they process it in their minds eye).  This is one of those.  I can see where the official threw the flag, and I can see if he decided to let it go why he would have. 

[TxSkyBolt]

Absent a fair catch signal, I have nothing on that play.

[StudyingFutureZebra]

Absent a fair catch signal, I have nothing on that play.

That was why I had asked if the "get away" signal was the same as a fair catch. You can't see it on-screen, but I was at the game and I saw make the get away signal before fielding the ball, and didn't see that he went to a knee. I had thought that was why they called it a late hit.