Author Topic: Illegal Touching in the EZ (Read 31084 times)

TXMike · « **on:** October 23, 2013, 09:12:44 AM »

Team A's punt bounces high into the air at the B-5. Gunner A22 dives towards the end zone in an attempt to get to the ball before it gets to the end zone. He lands face down in the end zone and the ball comes down, bouncing off his back, and then recovered by B20 who runs the ball to the B-3 where he is tackled. Ruling ?

Kalle · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2013, 09:21:23 AM »

Nice one

Illegal touching by A22 in the end zone. Ball remains live as it has not touched the ground in the end zone. Recovery by B20 is legal. Team B will take the touchback caused by the illegal touching, 1st and 10 for team B at B-20.

maven · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2013, 09:24:02 AM »

A couple of AR's mention illegal touching in B's EZ. For instance:

AR 6-3-11-II
Team A snaps at the 50-yard line and punts. The kick is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 recovers at the B-2 and advances to the B-12 where A66 tackles him by pulling his facemask. RULING: Team B may accept the penalty, which cancels the illegal touching privilege, and have first and 10 at the B-27.

Illegal touch in the EZ presumably results in a TB, though I don't see a rule to that effect.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2013, 09:24:32 AM »

As Kalle notes we have Illegal Touching and AR 6-3-2-I applies here:

Team A illegally touches its kick; then after Team B has touched it, Team A recovers. RULING: Touching by Team A after Team B has touched the kick is legal; and, in order to get the ball, Team B must take it where Team A illegally touched it. Unless illegal touching is also illegal recovery by the kicking team and no fouls are involved, the receiving team may play the ball with the assurance that it later may elect the ball at any spot of illegal touching.

TXMike · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2013, 09:30:22 AM »

Illegal TOUCH and Illegal BAT are not the same. Where does it say that an illegal TOUCH in B's EZ results in a touchback?

Andrew McCarthy · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2013, 09:30:46 AM »

I've had a problem with 6-3-11 for some time since it specifically only applies when the ball is batted in Team B’s end zone by a player of Team A.

It seems we expand this rule to apply for any touching by A since we don't really have guidance on what to do otherwise.

Kalle · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2013, 09:53:25 AM »

I claim that we simply apply 6-3-2-a and by logic, award a touchback.

Now, if there are fouls on the play, it becomes interesting, as we obviously cannot apply 6-3-11 as that rule only applies to bats.

4th and 20 from B-40. Team A's punt bounces high into the air at the B-5. Gunner A22 dives towards the end zone in an attempt to get to the ball before it gets to the end zone. He lands face down in the end zone and the ball comes down, bouncing off his back, and then recovered by B20 who runs the ball to the B-13 where he is tackled. A57 held behind the neutral zone during the kick. Ruling ?

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2013, 10:11:00 AM »

I've always read 6-3-2 to say that once Team A has an illegal touch on a scrimmage kick that Team B can attempt to gain possession and advance without risk (excepting the penalty scenarios) and can always opt to take the ball at any spot of illegal touching as stated at the end of AR 6-3-2-I " .... the receiving team may play the ball with the assurance that it later may elect the ball at any spot of illegal touching." If that spot is in the EZ, then we have a TB.

TXMike · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2013, 10:17:39 AM »

You say "illegal touch in B EZ is a TB". That is the crux here. Where is that stated?

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »

If B wanted to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touch, where would you give it to them Mike...the End zone?

maven · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2013, 10:25:24 AM »

Quote from: TxSkyBolt on October 23, 2013, 10:19:27 AM

If B wanted to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touch, where would you give it to them Mike...the End zone?

I don't think Mike's point is to put B in the EZ. It's to point out a small hole in the rules.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2013, 10:45:48 AM »

Doesn't the fact that B can opt to accept the ball at the illegal touch spot and the illegal touch spot is in the EZ cover this? If therefore the succeeding spot is in the EZ and the team responsible for the ball being there is team B we have a touchback don't we? Do we really need additional rules language to explicitly say that?

TXMike · « **Reply #12 on:** October 23, 2013, 11:13:20 AM »

So....6-3-2-a says B can take the ball at the illegal touch spot. If B chooses that, then go to 8-6-1-b which says that when the kick is dead "by rule" behind defending team's GL and attacking team is responsible for the ball being there. 8-6-1-b declares it a touchback.

Hawkeye · « **Reply #13 on:** October 23, 2013, 01:22:41 PM »

Spirit of the rule.

TXMike · « **Reply #14 on:** October 23, 2013, 01:42:34 PM »

OK. Now that we have this part settled.....instead of the ball hitting a prone Team A player it is kicked (before it touches ground in EZ ) and the ball goes back into the field of play where A80 recovers it at the B-2.

Morningrise · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2013, 02:49:16 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on October 23, 2013, 01:42:34 PM

OK. Now that we have this part settled.....instead of the ball hitting a prone Team A player it is kicked (before it touches ground in EZ ) and the ball goes back into the field of play where A80 recovers it at the B-2.

Kicking a loose ball is *never* legal. 9-4-1-c (usually) allows for A to bat their own scrimmage kick in B's end zone, but 9-4-4 has no parallel language for kicking. So this is a foul penalized from the previous spot or where the dead ball belongs to B. Because this kicking is also illegal touching, that part of 6-3-11 applies in spirit, thus the foul can be enforced from the B-20. B's 1/10@B-30.

TXMike · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2013, 02:56:59 PM »

Can the illegal touch spot be an enforcement spot if it is not the spot of recovery?

Morningrise · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2013, 03:24:00 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on October 23, 2013, 02:56:59 PM

Can the illegal touch spot be an enforcement spot if it is not the spot of recovery?

No; if this same kicking had occurred at the B-12, Team B would have to accept the penalty tacked on from the eventual dead-ball spot, not the B-12. But because the illegal touching happens in the end zone, by the spirit of 6-3-11 the B-20 can be an enforcement spot for fouls by Team A during the kick play. As this discussion serves to point out, we ought to presumably read 6-3-11 as specifying the enforcement spot after all kinds of illegal touching in B's EZ, not just bats, even though the rulebook seems to elide over that.

Andrew McCarthy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2013, 04:02:47 PM »

Why do you think it specifically says bats?

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2013, 04:29:48 PM »

Since team A kicking in the EZ would also by definition also include illegal touching where would the PSK spot be if team B elects to take the illegal touch spot and not the DB spot?? Would it not be the 20 yard line?

Morningrise · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2013, 04:48:26 PM »

Quote from: Andrew McCarthy on October 23, 2013, 04:02:47 PM

Why do you think it specifically says bats?

99% of the time when Team A illegally touches in the end zone, it's a failed attempt to keep the ball out of the end zone, and the typical technique is to bat it backward and let a teammate fall on it. My guess is the rule was written with that most common scenario in mind. The intent of the rule is clearly to treat accepted fouls as well as IT violations, in the event of such a failed attempt, the same way they'd be treated as if a touchback had occurred. I'm more confident that the rule is intended to handle the (extremely rare) case of kicking the same way, by enforcing penalties and ITs from the B-20. I'm not quite as confident that unintentional touching ought to be handled that same way, but I'll go with it.

Kalle · « **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2013, 01:12:36 AM »

To those who say that a penalty can be enforced from the B-20 if the ball is illegally touched (not batted) in the end zone, please note that the rule 6-3-11 only applies to such illegal touches that are also bats. So, absent any play situation ruling from RR you cannot really extend that to apply to all illegal touches, thus the only possible enforcement spots for team A fouls before the kick ends are the previous spot and the spot where the ball becomes dead and belongs to team B.

I'm willing to bet that RR will rule that 6-3-11 applies to all touches, but I've often been wrong in guessing which way he goes

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2013, 06:41:14 AM »

But isn't the real question here the location of the PSK spot since that would be the enforcement spot? And isn't the PSK spot the 20 yard line if Team B takes the option of accepting an Illegal Touch in the EZ?

TXMike · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2013, 06:45:27 AM »

PSK refers to Team B fouls. This is a Team A foul

Kalle · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2013, 07:53:32 AM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on October 24, 2013, 06:41:14 AM

But isn't the real question here the location of the PSK spot since that would be the enforcement spot? And isn't the PSK spot the 20 yard line if Team B takes the option of accepting an Illegal Touch in the EZ?

Team B does not have that option if the illegal touch is not an illegal bat in the team B end zone. The PSK spot would be the spot of the catch/recovery by either team or where the kick goes out of bounds.

Author Topic: Illegal Touching in the EZ (Read 31084 times)

maven

maven