PSK question

[FFD]

4/10 @ A-20. Team A punts and kick is blocked at A-10. While ball is loose behind NZ B20 blocks in the back at A-15. A1 recovers at A-5 and punts from there. Ball went out of bounds at A-40.

Can B have its foul enforced with PSK?

[Kalle]

No. The kick did not cross the neutral zone, thus not all four PSK criteria are met. 1st and 10 for team A at A-30.

[Hawkeye]

No. The kick did not cross the neutral zone, thus not all four PSK criteria are met. 1st and 10 for team A at A-30.

So are you saying that there is no PSK because the "related kick" did not cross the NZ?

10-2-3-b-2 says the "ball crosses the neutral zone" not the (related) kick crosses the NZ.  I believe that this play meets the 4 criteria for PSK as they are written in 10-2-3-b.  I'm not sure if RR was thinking of a play like this when he wrote the rule, but I don't see where it violates any of the conditions.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Does the 2013-2014 wording change regarding PSK make any difference here:

2011-2012:  10-2-3-b. Postscrimmage kick enforcement applies only to fouls by Team B during a scrimmage kick play and only under the following conditions:

2013-2014:  10-2-3-b. Postscrimmage kick enforcement applies only to fouls by Team B during a scrimmage kick and only under the following conditions:

Doesn't the timing of the foul (during the 1st kick play) have any impact on the penalty enforcement?

[Kalle]

So are you saying that there is no PSK because the "related kick" did not cross the NZ?

10-2-3-b-2 says the "ball crosses the neutral zone" not the (related) kick crosses the NZ.  I believe that this play meets the 4 criteria for PSK as they are written in 10-2-3-b.  I'm not sure if RR was thinking of a play like this when he wrote the rule, but I don't see where it violates any of the conditions.

Actually, by the literal rule, I think you are right. But I think "ball crosses the neutral zone" really should say "kick crosses the neutral zone". How about this for a brain teaser:

4th and 10 at A-20. A2 kicks a very high punt which crosses the neutral zone before blown back by the high wind. The kicked ball first touches ground at A-18. B90 recovers the kick at A-17. During the kick B80 held A88 at A-21. Here the ball has crossed the neutral zone but the kick hasn't.

[Hawkeye]

I agree it should say "kick" crosses ..., but would that mean the related kick or any kick during the down?  The related kick is not something I'd thought about until today!!

In the brain teaser, I don;t agree that the ball crosses the NZ, we don't have a definition of ball crossing the NZ, though the two definitions that concern the ball crossing the NZ that we do have (pass and kick) both refer to the ball touching something beyond the NZ, so by extension I believe that the ball crossing the NZ would use that criteria as well.

However, how about this:

4/10 @ A-20. Team A punts and kick is blocked at A-10. While ball is loose behind NZ B20 blocks in the back at A-15. A1 recovers at A-5 and runs to the A-25 where he fumbles. B2 recovers at the A-30 while grounded.

[tbarnes13]

I agree it should say "kick" crosses ..., but would that mean the related kick or any kick during the down?  The related kick is not something I'd thought about until today!!

In the brain teaser, I don;t agree that the ball crosses the NZ, we don't have a definition of ball crossing the NZ, though the two definitions that concern the ball crossing the NZ that we do have (pass and kick) both refer to the ball touching something beyond the NZ, so by extension I believe that the ball crossing the NZ would use that criteria as well.

However, how about this:

4/10 @ A-20. Team A punts and kick is blocked at A-10. While ball is loose behind NZ B20 blocks in the back at A-15. A1 recovers at A-5 and runs to the A-25 where he fumbles. B2 recovers at the A-30 while grounded.

My quick stab at it would be...A 1/10 @ B-30, clock on the snap. The enforcement spot is the previous spot, and we have no clean hands? I'm at work w/o a book or much time to think about it, but that's an interesting play, for sure.

[Kalle]

My quick stab at it would be...A 1/10 @ B-30, clock on the snap. The enforcement spot is the previous spot, and we have no clean hands? I'm at work w/o a book or much time to think about it, but that's an interesting play, for sure.

I think this would be the right answer by the spirit of the rules, but as written, the answer is PSK enforcement from A-5. 1st and 10 for team B at A-15.

[VaBackJudge]

While 10-2-3-b-2 is a little vague when it says "The ball crosses the neutral zone" as a requirement for PSK, and possibly open to interpretation, the additional language in A.R. 10-2-3-III appears to be helpful:

"Team A's punt is blocked behind the neutral zone before clipping or holding by Team B clips or holds more than three yards beyond the neutral zone. The ball never crosses the neutral zone during the play. RULING: Rule 10-2-3 applies only when a scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone. Team A retains possession after the penalty is enforced at the previous spot."

The play scenario itself is not the same as the hypothetical one described above, but the clarifying language would suggest no PSK, since the status of the ball is no longer that of a kick when it is carried beyond the neutral zone.

[NVFOA_Ump]

VaBackJudge is on point for the 2nd play (Hawkeye's play), but the original play where there is a 2nd kick is still a bit of an unknown.  Common sense would have us read the crossing to be related directly to the current kick but that's not clear the way the rule is currently written.  I'm not sure that we shouldn't apply AR 10-2-3-III to the original case play (the two kicks) and rule that PSK doesn't apply since the foul occured during a loose ball (that had not crossed the NZ) prior to the 2nd kick play.

[tbarnes13]

While 10-2-3-b-2 is a little vague when it says "The ball crosses the neutral zone" as a requirement for PSK, and possibly open to interpretation, the additional language in A.R. 10-2-3-III appears to be helpful:

"Team A's punt is blocked behind the neutral zone before clipping or holding by Team B clips or holds more than three yards beyond the neutral zone. The ball never crosses the neutral zone during the play. RULING: Rule 10-2-3 applies only when a scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone. Team A retains possession after the penalty is enforced at the previous spot."

The play scenario itself is not the same as the hypothetical one described above, but the clarifying language would suggest no PSK, since the status of the ball is no longer that of a kick when it is carried beyond the neutral zone.

This was my thought for the enforcement spot. With the kick being blocked behind the NZ, and never crossing the neutral zone, we can only enforce from previous spot. I still haven't had a chance to check the book myself....