Terrible Incident in Texas

[GAHSUMPIRE]

GAHSUMPIRE

You do know we use the NCAA rule book right?  Is article 12 you reference in NFHS book?

Yes, I do. Article 12 was pulled from the same document I got the other information from:


http://www.tylerrefs.org/documents/2011TASO7OfficialMechanicsManual06_11.pdf

It was on Page 6 of this TASO officials Manual. I apologize if I got this wrong, but I was under the impression that TASO was the governing body for officials in Texas.

[Etref]

Exactly.  I have video of each position where the official gets rolled.  It would not be that hard to make something appear to be accidental.  The Referee position even gets rolled on changes of possession.

Been there, done that, got the scars and the tee shirt! Don't think any of them were intentional but still we get in their way at times.

[HAshleyTX]

Mechanics book...not rule book. 

The manual of football officiating is designed to make available to every official detailed information regarding the officiating techniques which, through evaluation and studied development, have come to be recognized as accepted standards of officiating performance.

[bama_stripes]

Your statement indicates that we own a certain amount of blame for the situation we face.  "Culture" is a combination of all environment surrounding the students and coaches.  I submit that WE DO the things you suggested on a consistent basis but once again, our authority is granted by the rules of the game...not through any significant amount of influence and that influence is ALWAYS over powered by the influence of the coaches, school administration and home life.  In the MF vs John Jay game, the officials had already exercised the use of the rules to address issues and it still did not prevent the players from assaulting the official.  In a twisted way, their judicious application of the rules actually led to the assault.  Here is where the problem lies.  The "culture" has shifted to the point that any amount of authority or influence we have in the game results in possible physical retaliation.  This is a behavior problem that was not tolerated when you and I were playing HS football.  Our generation wouldn't even think of doing something like this because we were taught how to behave and not by game officials.

This is the dangerous current just beneath the surface and it's about to pull us all under unless those in position to correct it take responsibility to do so.

While I agree with you, my original "culture" reference was not aimed toward the players.  It was in response to a post about the "culture" of officials being hesitant to penalize coaches in Texas for unsportsmanlike behavior.

I apologize if I didn't provide enough quoteage to make that clear.

[HAshleyTX]

I think you and I have both become cross-eyed on this subject.  My rants have been focused on control in the aspect of player behavior.  I see your point on flagging coaches which I have done numerous times, all of which are addressed by rule but not just because they get on my nerves.  I apologize also if that's tripped us up.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

Mechanics book...not rule book. 

For the purpose of this discussion, what is the difference?

[/quote]The manual of football officiating is designed to make available to every official detailed information regarding the officiating techniques which, through evaluation and studied development, have come to be recognized as accepted standards of officiating performance.
[/quote]

As you say in your amended response, the items I highlighted are " the accepted standards of officiating performance." To me that means in TASO's eyes, the official SHOULD handle the player, and control the game through administration of the rules. I am in no way absolving coaches from the responsibility of handling/controlling players. What I have been saying all along is that it is (or should be) a collaboration between the officials and the coaches.

If the coaches abdicate their part of the responsibility, based on what TASO says, it seems like it is incumbent upon the officials to handle the players, and control the game through the administration of the rules.

I hold no brief for TASO, as I do not work in Texas, but again, I assumed that is the organization governing officials in that state, so I deferred to what they said.




 

[TexDoc]

If a coach scratches an official here is my response, "Coach, in 3 weeks from now that crew is scheduled to work your game again.  I will gladly honor your request to scratch them, but we will not have another crew available to cover your game."  Guess what, the scratch is removed and the crew works his game in 3 weeks and by then he has already forgotten all about that crew.

Jason, you guys must assign games and not have coaches picks.

[TexDoc]

Doc, I call HORSE HOCKEY or horse hockey or whatever it gets translated to be!

You can and must flag the coaches at times when they get out of line. I didn't give a darn if they picked me again (retired now). Most of them after you flag them will calm down an come to their senses and actually apologize. The ones that don't you don't want to work for anyway. You should only do it needed, but their are times when you must (you with an adjective that follows, sidelines,etc)
If you let it go, you create a problem not only for the next crew but for yourself when you have them again.

I lived by the creed I may not be here next Friday but I will be somewhere.

Just my $.02 and now I go back under my rock

Not saying I live by the culture, I'm just stating what I see as the culture in this area and with most chapter that utilize picks.  In 27 years, I've never flagged a coach in a varsity game for behavior, but I've sure wanted to.

[HAshleyTX]

What I have been saying all along is that it is (or should be) a collaboration between the officials and the coaches.

If the coaches abdicate their part of the responsibility, based on what TASO says, it seems like it is incumbent upon the officials to handle the players, and control the game through the administration of the rules.

I hold no brief for TASO, as I do not work in Texas, but again, I assumed that is the organization governing officials in that state, so I deferred to what they said.

I think you and I have said some of the same things only in different ways.  To clarify, we don't have any control of player behavior other than the authority of the rules.  They mouth-off, cheap shot, or commit any USC foul then we enforce according to the rule.  When it comes to behavior and controlling the emotions of players, that responsibility falls solely on the coaching staff and the school who spends so much more time influencing them.  Our presence on the field, our voice are techniques of officiating that have impact to an extent but its become more an more difficult to get results.  When the coaches and schools AND parents fail to teach kids how to behave, control is lost way before we step on the field and there's nothing we can do to address it.

Texas officials do flag coaches who break the rules, we do flag and even eject players who break the rules but this incident is proof positive that its getting to a level that our limited authority can deal with.

[prosec34]

I guess I didn't realize Texas uses NCAA rules.

Utilize NFHS rules, and control you will have.

[Logical]

[TX] operate under NCAA rules ...

Therein lies some of the problem as well.
Nearly all high school athletes are minors while nearly all college athletes are adults. Why let minors play under the same rules as adults?
Isolating one difference, I'd be curious to know how many 16/17 year old HS knees have been blown out by NCAA legal blocks below the waist that are illegal under NFHS.

[allen]

HLinNC, it is a cultural thing here in Texas, you just do not flag coaches.  You might in a sub varsity game, but it just doesn't happen in varsity contests, or the official winds up getting blamed, or he decides to sit at home on Friday nights.

I guess I didn't get that memo.  I've had a Texas state championship game and I've officiated one of the top 2 area rival games each of the past five years as well as go far into the playoffs.

I flag coaches when they earn one.  Every single time.  If a coach wants to scratch me because I hold him to the standard of the rules, I promise I'll have a different good game somewhere else that night and I won't lose any sleep over it.

[Rulesman]

I guess I didn't get that memo.  I've had a Texas state championship game and I've officiated one of the top 2 area rival games each of the past five years as well as go far into the playoffs.

I flag coaches when they earn one.  Every single time.  If a coach wants to scratch me because I hold him to the standard of the rules, I promise I'll have a different good game somewhere else that night and I won't lose any sleep over it.

[TexDoc]

I'm starting to wonder if not flagging coaches is just a problem in chapters where coaches pick or just a problem in my chapter.  Regardless, it exists here for sure.

[ETXZebra]

I don't have a problem with flagging coaches, I've done it many times.  My problem is ejecting a coach, especially at the varsity level.  We've all heard the horror stories of how officials get treated in Austin when it happens. It seems they usually slap the coach on the wrist and tell him not to do again and his name goes in the UIL Leaguer.  And it's usually a slap in the face of the officials for not taking care of the game.

[HLinNC]

Then it would appear to me that TASO needs to take this incident and use it as a method for some change, if they can.  What that change is, is up to them.

[ETXZebra]

The situation I'm talking about in Austin is not TASO but the UIL.

[HAshleyTX]

The situation I'm talking about in Austin is not TASO but the UIL.

Can anyone tell me what the UIL does with incident reports that we file?  I have done many of these and never heard back and some of them were pretty significant happenings. I suspect they are file 13 since it doesn't appear anything comes of them.

[Etref]

It is referred to district committee unless a coach ejection or UIL rules violation
Those are handled by UIL in Austin
We do not get feed back

[HAshleyTX]

From SA Express News Article today re: Jay vs Del Rio

Based on the developments regarding the incident, University Interscholastic League deputy director Jamey Harrison said because of the added administrative and security presence, the team should continue playing.  “We feel like it’s safe to move forward,” Harrison said Thursday. “We agree with the school district. It would not be appropriate to take that Friday night experience away from all of the other students from that community.”

Harrison also noted the individuals who might have been involved in last week’s incident will not be a part of Friday’s game between the Mustangs (1-1) and Del Rio Rams (1-1).
Senior Mike Moreno and sophomore Victor Rojas, the two defensive backs who attacked Watts from behind, were suspended from the team and school pending a disciplinary hearing that has yet to be scheduled.

Their Jay position coach, Mack Breed, was placed on paid administrative leave Tuesday among allegations Breed told the players Watts “needs to pay for cheating us,” according to the district.
Rojas was one of four players ejected from last week’s game. The other three — junior Daytwon Sheridan, senior Moses Reynolds and senior Trent Hobdy — will be eligible for the game, according to Northside ISD athletic director Stan Laing.

Sheridan and Reynolds were ejected for unsportsmanlike-conduct penalties. Hobdy was ejected after he was misidentified as one of the players who attacked Watts.
Laing said those three players were reprimanded by Jay coach Gary Gutierrez, who could not be reached for comment. The UIL does not prohibit players who were ejected from a previous game from playing the following week.


Perhaps the UIL needs to reconsider the stance on ejected players?


   
 

[allen]

To be clear, ejections are an entirely different matter.  I've never done that, but I've never had a coach earn it either.

Based of my respect for their profession (one of the hardest jobs on the planet) and our rules and policies, they'd have to be extremely bad for that to happen.

Do your best, maintain control and keep it professional.  Enforce the rules, even with coaches behavior.  And if odd things happen (like attacks), I would hope that justice would be enforced and that the UIL and TASO will push for that to happen.

[Welpe]

I'm starting to wonder if not flagging coaches is just a problem in chapters where coaches pick or just a problem in my chapter.  Regardless, it exists here for sure.

It's not just your chapter. I saw a similar attitude in my old chapter as well. That and refusing to throw out players when required (fighting). It's not every crew but there were more than a few.

[Joe Stack]

Why let minors play under the same rules as adults?

One thing has nothing to do with the other. Texas playing under NCAA rules is largely historical, but also has tremendous advantages. Officials can work college games with virtually no additional training. Although playing the game isn't a rules intensive exercise, players can go to college programs seemlessly. Finally, no one here is stuck with stupid Fed football rules. Fed. has its place with sports like basketball when there is a lot of schools crossing state lines to play (tournaments, etc.), but that's largely a non-issue in football. There is and never has been an issue with Texas playing NCAA rules except for people in other states that for whatever reason don't like it. I suggest all states go NCAA -- its a much better code.

[Welpe]

I suggest all states go NCAA -- its a much better code.

With a few minor exceptions, I'm inclined to agree. Especially with the latest revisions to low blocks in NCAA, I don't think there's a significant difference in safety between the codes. In fact I think in some ways the NCAA has a heavier emphasis on safety and sportsmanship with leading the way on targeting fouls being automatic ejections, all personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls being automatic first downs, and UNS fouls during the play being enforced as live ball fouls. There are also fewer instances where a team must decline a personal foul in order to keep the ball or the result of the play.

Fed is simpler but I don't think necessarily better.

[ECILLJ]

Finally, no one here is stuck with stupid Fed football rules

Considering what the rest of us have just witnessed in Texas, I think I'd be more careful with my word selection.  Just sayin'.