Author Topic: Offsetting Penalties (Read 21639 times)

U52 · « **on:** October 12, 2015, 03:17:06 PM »

On Friday my crew had a play that I'm wondering if we got right, looking for a little help!
A had the ball on their own 10 yard line. A6 goes off right end for a 90 yard TD. On the run, A60 is flagged for a block in the back at the 50 yard line. As A6 continues to the goal line, B51 blocks A8 in the back. This happened before A6 crossed for the TD. What do I have here?

VALJ · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2015, 03:23:26 PM »

Shouldn't matter which code, actually. Did both teams commit live ball fouls (not unsportsmanlike or non-player) during the action on a down that did not involve a change of possession? And if you're working NFHS code, what does 10-2-1a say about it?

HLinNC · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2015, 04:42:42 PM »

Looks like double fouls to me!

What did you do?

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2015, 05:49:06 PM »

Another question to ask is "Was B51's block in the back in an attempt to get to the runner?" I don't know if that matters in NFHS, but in NCAA that would make his block legal and could take away your offsetting fouls.

J12 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2015, 05:52:52 PM »

If A were to decline the penalty on B, assuming B accepts the penalty on A, A could have the ball 1st and 10 on A40 -- a 10 yard penalty from the spot of the foul. If A accepts the penalty on B, and B accepts the penalty on A, we have offsetting penalties and we replay the down.

NorCalMike · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2015, 07:09:13 PM »

Ok we have no change of possession. Both teams committed live ball fouls. These are double fouls. The only only to hand this is for the penalties to offset and replay the down. Rule 9-2-1

J12 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2015, 07:42:00 PM »

Quote from: NorCalMike on October 12, 2015, 07:09:13 PM

Ok we have no change of possession. Both teams committed live ball fouls. These are double fouls. The only only to hand this is for the penalties to offset and replay the down. Rule 9-2-1

But if A were to decline the penalty on B, we'd no longer have offsetting fouls.

VALJ · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:06:01 PM »

The fouls offset by rule. Nobody gets the chance to decline either foul.

ncwingman · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:06:42 PM »

Quote from: J12 on October 12, 2015, 07:42:00 PM

But if A were to decline the penalty on B, we'd no longer have offsetting fouls.

If there is no change of possession and/or no PSK fouls, double fouls offset and the down is replayed. There is no option to decline either of the fouls.

DallasLJ · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:32:27 PM »

Quote from: VALJ on October 12, 2015, 08:06:01 PM

The fouls offset by rule. Nobody gets the chance to decline either foul.

Is that a Fed rule, because under NCAA, either team my decline a penalty. There is no reason that they would -- and when both are accepted, all accepted lives balls fouls by Teams A and B will offset.

U52 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:48:49 PM »

We replayed the down from the original Los, the 10. I didn't feel it was right , so we did get together and talk about it as a crew. All felt that A couldn't decline Bs penalty so we went with that. I just want to make sure we did get it right or more importantly get it right the next time.

ncwingman · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:50:20 PM »

Quote from: DallasLJ on October 12, 2015, 08:32:27 PM

Is that a Fed rule, because under NCAA, either team my decline a penalty. There is no reason that they would -- and when both are accepted, all accepted lives balls fouls by Teams A and B will offset.

NCAA Rule 10.1.4:

ARTICLE 4. If live-ball fouls by both teams are reported to the referee, the
fouls offset and the down is repeated (A.R. 10-1-4-I and VII). Any player who
commits a foul that mandates disqualification must leave the game.
Exceptions:
1. When there is a change of team possession during a down, and the team
last gaining possession had not fouled before last gaining possession,
it may refuse offsetting fouls and thereby retain possession after
completion of the penalty for its foul (A.R. 10-1-4-II-VII).
2. When all Team B fouls are governed by postscrimmage kick rules,
Team B may refuse offsetting fouls and accept postscrimmage kick
enforcement.
3. Rules 8-3-4-c and 3-1-3-g-3 (during a try or extra period after Team B
possession).

There is no option to decline half of a double foul unless there was a change of possession or PSK enforcement.

TXMike · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:51:11 PM »

Quote from: DallasLJ on October 12, 2015, 08:32:27 PM

Is that a Fed rule, because under NCAA, either team my decline a penalty. There is no reason that they would -- and when both are accepted, all accepted lives balls fouls by Teams A and B will offset.

It may be a very technical point but I don't think either team automatically has the right to decline a penalty. If there are offsetting fouls, they are offsetting unless one of the 3 listed exceptions apply (NCAA)

U52 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:51:40 PM »

I'm not sure how horse hockey got into my last post? Sorry about that!

ncwingman · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2015, 08:55:13 PM »

Quote from: U52 on October 12, 2015, 08:51:40 PM

I'm not sure how horse hockey got into my last post? Sorry about that!

It's a filter that catches the word for male bovine excrement. Unfortunately, it also catches a possessive form of B (as in, "the penalty belonging to B") that is also a two letter abbreviation for the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if something in this post gets filtered as well.

SD_Casey · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2015, 09:28:48 PM »

Quote from: ncwingman on October 12, 2015, 08:55:13 PM

It's a filter that catches the word for male bovine excrement. Unfortunately, it also catches a possessive form of B (as in, "the penalty belonging to B") that is also a two letter abbreviation for the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if something in this post gets filtered as well.

That filter is HORSE HOCKEY.

DallasLJ · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2015, 09:37:37 PM »

I have always heard Rogers say that any penalty may be declined.

ncwingman · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2015, 10:38:33 PM »

Quote from: DallasLJ on October 12, 2015, 09:37:37 PM

I have always heard Rogers say that any penalty may be declined.

A foul is a violation of the rules for which there can be a penalty enforced. If there is a double foul, the fouls offset and the down is replayed. There are no penalties to be enforced or declined.

Otherwise, yes, any penalty can be declined.

wheels71 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2015, 07:08:34 AM »

I see why you questioned it tho. If B does not foul it is a first down, so B had to commit a live ball foul in order for the ball to go back to where it was. Interesting.

J12 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2015, 11:23:41 AM »

OK -- I stand corrected on that. I'm continually amazed at the things I learn on this site.

Kalle · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2015, 12:55:14 PM »

In NCAA you could invoke the Unfair Acts rule and enforce both penalties in succession, if you are absolutely certain that B fouled only to gain an unfair advantage.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #21 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:43:20 AM »

NFHS = double fouls, no choice = replay the down.
Rarely do double fouls have happy endings.

Hump day trivia : Same OP BUT B's BIB occurred AFTER A had crossed the goal line.....

YOU MAKE THE CALL...

CUBBIES, REMEMBER SOX '04 - 4 IN A ROW CAN HAPPEN!!!!

VALJ · « **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:57:17 AM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on October 21, 2015, 08:43:20 AM

NFHS = double fouls, no choice = replay the down.
Rarely do double fouls have happy endings.

Hump day trivia : Same OP BUT B's BIB occurred AFTER A had crossed the goal line.....

YOU MAKE THE CALL...

Unless the contact by B was severe enough to warrant being a PF, enfprce A's foul under all but one, and start the clock on the snap. If B has earned a personal foul, enforce A's foul under all but one, then mark off 15 yards on B, and then start the clock on the snap.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2015, 10:27:05 AM »

Congrats , VALJ, you win the

Kewpie doll. You can't have a dead ball block in the back, holding, helping the runner, incidental face mask, etc. If you felt any of these rose to a level of a personal foul, you could rule that, and that would create a DB foul with proper enforcement.

Morningrise · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2015, 11:35:03 AM »

Situations like these are why I feel clean hands should be available to Team A *before* a change of possession.

Take the same play, but imagine that A fumbled to B and B fumbled to A, and THEN the long run happened with two deep downfield fouls. If A gets to invoke clean hands and preserve (most of) that long run, what is the rationale or justification for not giving them that same opportunity all the time?