Author Topic: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3  (Read 7799 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« on: October 13, 2017, 02:33:00 PM »
On Play 6 of the 2017 Video Review 3, Redding talks about illegal batting, etc., which I totally understand and agree.

But, in looking at what was actually done, during the return there was a called holding foul by (A&M) B86, which we can see is at the B-15 (huge takedown).  Then the ball is fumbled, also at the B-15 (ironically, knocked out the BCs arm by the helmet of B86 as B86 is taking the kicking team player to the ground), and is then batted to the B-1 where A&M recovers and is down.  It looks like the next play is about to begin at the B-1, then the video goes to the R making his foul announcement.  He announces that the holding penalty is 1/2 the distance to the goal.  That would put the ball at the B-7 1/2.  Please tell me that the video is just out of sequence; that the penalty was declined; and a corrective announcement was made, so that's why we see video of A&M about to snap at the B-1.

Semi-related, after B86's takedown, the kicking team effectively get's a free foul.  If Team A also fouls, and the receiving team wants to keep the ball (and avoid a re-kick), the receiving team will have to do the "clean hands" thing and decline the kicking team's penalty (in this case, for the illegal batting foul), and then have their penalty completed.  Note that I said completed, and not necessarily accepted.  If Team B declines offsetting fouls to keep the ball, then Team A will have the choice to accept or decline Team B's penalty.  In this case, Team B would obviously decline, because the result of the play would be more advantageous for them.  A smart Team B just might elect to take offsetting fouls, and re-kick.  Their chances of getting better field position would be all but guaranteed.

By the way, I sure like Matt Austin's physical demeanor when making announcements.  So much more relaxed and human - not mechanical or robotic - than so many Rs.

Robert

Offline Cowtown Ref

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 04:26:45 PM »
I see what youre saying.  Maybe they hadnt marked the penalty off at that point?  Idk

But my point would be i dont agree with that being batting.  My opinion is that player was trying to swipe the ball back into his reach.  Not batting it backwards.  Go back and watch the film.  Why in the world would he want to bat the ball backwards in that situation and not attempt to recover the ball?  IMO no way was that guy trying to bat the ball backwards.  Only trying to swipe the ball into his possession.

Online DallasLJ

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 04:46:25 PM »
Elvis

  Why do you think the 1/2 the distance penalty enforcement would place the ball at the B 7 1/2.  The foul occurred during the run.  The related run ended at the 1 yard line when the Receiving Team fell on the ball.  The related run for fumbles that go behind the spot of the fumble are the point of recovery, not the sport of the fumble, correct?  Under 3 in 1 principle, when the related run ends behind the spot of the foul, the enforcement spot is the end of the related run.  1/2 the distance from the B-1.  Or am I missing something . . . . which is always possible.


Offline Cowtown Ref

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 04:54:37 PM »
Dallas LJ you are correct.

Yeah I was still distracted with the questionable batting call that I dont agree with.

But yes the foul would be marked off from the end of the run in that situation.  So the 1 is the correct spot.

If it had been marked off from the spot of the foul, the offending team would have actually benefited from the foul.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 05:38:35 PM »
The related run ended at the 1 yard line when the Receiving Team fell on the ball.  The related run for fumbles that go behind the spot of the fumble are the point of recovery, not the sport of the fumble, correct? 

Cowtown,
A "running play" includes the interval while the ball is loose from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass (2-30-4).  So, all fouls that occur during the loose ball are related to the end of the run for that related running play.  In this case, the ball was fumbled about the B-15, so the end of the related run is the B-15.

The holding foul AND the batting foul both occurred during the same running play, so the enforcement spot for both would be the end of the related run, which is the B-15.  Of course, with the 'clean hands' situation, either both penalties would ultimately be declined, or a smart receiving team would just elect offsetting fouls to repeat the kickoff.

Regarding the possibility of the kicking team player attempting to swipe or scoop the ball towards himself, wow, I just don't see that.  He didn't bat it backward - he batted it forward, which is why it was illegal.  He batted it forward to 1) gain yardage, 2) to prevent the opponents from recovering it, and 3) to allow a teammate to have a better chance of recovering it (which is why the rule exists).  I see absolutely no attempt to gain possession of the ball.  As Redding concluded, this is illegal batting, clear and simple.

Not a really big deal, as it turned out, because of the holding foul by the receiving team.  But, I just wonder if A&M was advised with regard to electing offsetting fouls, or just exactly what. DUH.  I knew that the batting wasn't called, so no opportunity for offsetting fouls.  Just got caught up in my own "what if" scenario.

Fresno State once elected offsetting fouls in a similar situation, instead of keeping the ball around the B-15.  On the re-kick, they got tackled at the B-10.  Go figure.  There actually were fouls by both teams on that play.

Robert
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:31:00 AM by ElvisLives »

Online DallasLJ

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 01:12:20 AM »
Elvis
  Having a hard time find "end of the related run."  I get 2-25-8 says the "run" ends where player possession is lost on a fumble.  And, yes the run includes the run and loose ball play before possession, but that does not answer the 3 in 1 principle question of when the related run ends.  I was all set to go with the definition of 2-25-8 on where the run ends, but then AR 2-30-4-II gives the enforcement stop of where the fumble was recovered -- even though it was in advance of the fumble.  Thus, the recovery spot is where the related run ends --- not the spot of the fumble.

  So, back to the A&M game -- and there was not batting called, so only penalty called is Holding by return team at the 15 during a run --- and the run had a fumble at the 15 -- which was recovered at the 1 yard line -- behind the "end of the run."  Receiving team is now going to put the ball in play at the 1.  Enforcement of penalty is 1/2 the distance from this "end of the related run spot".   Otherwise, the foul by A&M would simply have been declined and the result of the play accepted. 

  Thoughts?  Rule references please.

Online Kalle

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 01:26:54 AM »
2-30-4-a should clarify this. In this play situation there are two running plays during the return. One is the run by B86, which ends at B-15 (and includes the action until the start of the second run), and the other is the run which starts and ends at B-1.

In A.R. 2-30-4-II the penalty statement reads: the penalty is added to the end of the last run (not the related run, as in 3-1 enforcement). There used to be valid arguments against the action by A24 not being a separate run(ning play), which is why the A.R. was added. Technically even the snap is a separate run, but this rarely comes into play.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:43:37 AM by Kalle »

Online DallasLJ

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 07:09:31 AM »
2-30-4-a should clarify this. In this play situation there are two running plays during the return. One is the run by B86, which ends at B-15 (and includes the action until the start of the second run), and the other is the run which starts and ends at B-1.

In A.R. 2-30-4-II the penalty statement reads: the penalty is added to the end of the last run (not the related run, as in 3-1 enforcement). There used to be valid arguments against the action by A24 not being a separate run(ning play), which is why the A.R. was added. Technically even the snap is a separate run, but this rarely comes into play.
  So, your saying Alabama should decline the hold and accept the result of the play; accepted penalty would be B 7 1/2; but resut of the play is B 1.

Online Kalle

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 07:18:18 AM »
  So, your saying Alabama should decline the hold and accept the result of the play; accepted penalty would be B 7 1/2; but resut of the play is B 1.

Exactly.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 07:45:36 AM »
Absolutely correct that the recovery and then immediate dead ball constitutes a running play.  But that running play occurs after the running play in which the fouls occurred.  The basic spot for fouls that occur during a running play that has no neutral zone is the end of the related run (10-2-2-d-1-c). 
In the A&M-Alabama play, both fouls occurred during the running play in which the fumble occurred, and the end of the run during that running play is the spot of the fumble.  So, the Basic Spot for those fouls is the spot of the fumble.  That’s why we drop a spot marker (bean bag) at the spot of the fumble.  (We don’t drop a spot marker where a loose ball is caught or recovered - that spot has no meaning for penalty enforcement.)  The penalty would then be 1/2 the distance to the goal from that spot, for the holding foul by the receiving team, if it were to be accepted.  That would have put the ball at the B7 1/2.  But, the result of the play was more advantageous to Alabama, so it looks like both penalties were declined, sequentially, under the clean hands provision.  I just wonder if A&M was aware they could have elected offsetting fouls and had the kickoff repeated.
  Again, caught up in my "what if" scenario.  Only the holding foul was called.
2-30-4 I & II are related to Roughing the Passer, which are special cases.  The penalty for that particular foul MAY be added the end of the last run.  This was put in many years ago, because so many RPS penalties had to be declined, because they could only be enforced at the previous spot. Defensive players were simply getting away with serious safety fouls.
In those two ARs, the end of the last run is the spot where the ball became dead, AFTER it was recovered by the passing team; the spot of the recovery, and the dead-ball spot just happen to be the same spot. 
Holding and illegal batting fouls do not have that special provision. They can only be enforced according to the 3 & 1 Principle at the Basic Spot related to those fouls.

Note that other personal fouls may also be added to the end of the last run, too.  But only personal fouls.  Not holding, or other non-personal fouls.

Robert
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:33:14 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 09:56:45 AM »
Clarifications as I was at this game...

The holding penalty is simply administered from either the spot of the foul or the end of the related run.  It is not enforced from the recovery spot as suggested in an earlier post.

The officials did NOT throw a flag for illegal batting by Team A so the only penalty to enforce is the OH which Team A will decline since the result of the play is better for Team A.  Unfortunately the announcement indicated the penalty was accepted... I do not recall a correction being made to this announcement.  If the penalty was half the distance, it should be at the 7 1/2, not the 1-yard line as mentioned earlier.  This was an incorrect penalty administration as the hold was part of the original run by B.

An earlier comment seemed to say the batting was backward... not true.  Team A batted it forward.  Granted the question is why would they bat the ball instead of just recovering it?  Good question... all I know is the ball went 12 yards forward for Team A due to this "attempted" recovery.  If my Cubbies would bat the ball this hard they'd have a chance against LA.

And finally if illegal batting was called I guarantee you Team B wants the offset and re-kick situation.  Team B did get the ball with clean hands.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:03:20 AM by wlemonnier »
Bill LeMonnier

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 10:21:49 AM »
This was an incorrect penalty administration as the hold was part of the original run by B.


Perhaps the crew recognized the situation and simply "declined" the holding penalty, and just went with the result of the play. (?)

Hope your Cubs play the 'Stros.

Robert

Offline hefnerjm

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 12:03:49 PM »
If my Cubbies would bat the ball this hard they'd have a chance against LA.

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Offline TXMike

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 12:31:34 PM »
Perhaps Team A ultimately declined the penalty and as they often do, TV people were so busy with their own stuff (inlcuding bringing in Mr. Bill :-) )   that they did not show revised announcement.    This is from the feed: 

https://youtu.be/HhbkVB5pDC8

« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:42:43 PM by TXMike »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 12:48:40 PM »
Yes, the crew must have recognized the situation, and the penalty was declined, because the ball was next snapped at the B-1.

I didn't know 'til now that Mr.Lemonnier was not only AT the game, but was the rules expert for the broadcasting team.  Cool.

Robert

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Re: Play 6 - 2017 Video Review 3
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 09:03:39 PM »
Bill is at a game as rules expert somewhere most every week.
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