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Online ElvisLives

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Try this
« on: April 08, 2020, 07:25:16 AM »
Not difficult, but different.

2/10, A-5, 8:00 (2), A=0, B=7.
A11 receives the snap in the end zone.  B55 contacts A11, causing A11 to fumble the ball.  With players of both teams Attempting to recover the ball in the end zone, B55 slaps the ball to keep A11 from recovering the ball.  The ball travels out of bounds behind the goal line.

A) What is the pure result of the down?

B) What is the probable next down (possession, yard line, down number/type)?


Offline Punter

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Re: Try this
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2020, 09:13:28 AM »
A-touchback
B-A 1 and 10 A 15 clock on snap

Online dammitbobby

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Re: Try this
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2020, 09:42:55 AM »
A-touchback
B-A 1 and 10 A 15 clock on snap

Why the 15, instead of the 20 for a touchback?  No foul/penalty was mentioned.

Offline Punter

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Re: Try this
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2020, 09:47:15 AM »
B55 slapping the ball is a illegal bat, but you have a point that I sometimes forget in written questions.  A will decline the penalty and take the touchback 1st and 10 from the 20 clock on snap. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 09:52:53 AM by Punter »

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Try this
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2020, 10:00:29 AM »
It won’t be at the 20 because the result is not a touchback. A’s snap put the ball behind their goal line. What made the ball go out of bounds is irrelevant. Because A’s backward pass (snap) put the ball behind the goal line and it was declared dead there, the result of the play is a safety. After enforcing the penalty for the batting, it will be 1/10 @ A-15, GC snap, PC 25.

Offline bctgp

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Re: Try this
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2020, 11:36:42 AM »
If the fumble strikes the ground and then Team B batted it then the result of the play is a touchback.

Offline Punter

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Re: Try this
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2020, 11:43:18 AM »
Legacy is correct.  The ball would need hit the ground in the field of play and be batted into the EZ for this to be a TB.  It only matters which team put the ball into the EZ. My original answer was wrong


Offline Kalle

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Re: Try this
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 12:14:09 PM »
If the fumble strikes the ground and then Team B batted it then the result of the play is a touchback.

Please provide rule references in support for your argument. Rule reference for LZ's (IMO absolutely correct) answer is 8-7-1.

Offline bctgp

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Re: Try this
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2020, 12:41:41 PM »
If the fumble strikes the ground and then Team B batted it then the result of the play is a touchback. Ref = 8-7-2-b(1). Team B is responsible for the ball going out the back of Team A EZ.

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Try this
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2020, 01:29:57 PM »
Responsibility is charged to the team who causes it cross the goal line, not the team who causes it to be out of bounds. 8-7-1. Yes, B’s bat could add new impetus if the ball had been grounded, but it would not affect this play because A had already provided the impetus that put it behind their goal line.

Modified scenario: rather than batting it out bounds, B55 bats the ball back into the field of play. The ball then ricochets off of a player and bounces back into the end zone and goes out of bounds.

Now it matters if the ball is grounded because B’s bat would then provide the new impetus that put it across the goal line.

But in the original play it doesn’t matter because A put the ball behind their goal line and it never left their end zone.

Offline js in sc

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Re: Try this
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 01:40:12 PM »
If the fumble strikes the ground and then Team B batted it then the result of the play is a touchback. Ref = 8-7-2-b(1). Team B is responsible for the ball going out the back of Team A EZ.
I believe that this rule only adds clarification to Article 1, which defines the ball going into the end zone.  Once it is there, changes in impetus are of no consequence.  The team responsible for putting it into the end zone remains responsible until the ball goes back out over the goal line, regardless of who bats it where.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Try this
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 10:05:39 PM »
Good discussion.

As LZ says, impetus is from the Team A snap, and the ball becomes dead behind A’s goal line.  So, the pure result of the down is a safety - potentially, 2 points for B.
The illegal batting of the ball (a foul) does not change the impetus, because the ball did not leave the end zone after Team A put the ball there. (More about that later.)
Team A has two options: 1) Decline the penalty, and allow a Team B to get 2 points by the safety, or 2) accept the penalty for the illegally batting of the ball foul, which is a rare 10-yard 3&1 principle/Basic Spot enforcement foul.  The Basic Spot in this case is the Previous Spot (related run ended behind neutral zone).  Thus, the penalty is enforced at the Basic Spot (A-5).  The penalty will leave the ball at the line-to-gain (A-15), resulting in a first down. Due to the ‘apparent’ safety, the game clock will start on the snap, and the play clock will be set to 25 seconds and will start on the Referee’s signal.

There might be a scenario in which Team A might decline the penalty, but this isn’t one of those.  Team A will accept the penalty.

So, now for more on impetus.
Prior to 2013, it was a true statement that “impetus could not be changed in the end zone,” supported by 2012-8-7-2-b-1 “(Exception: The original impetus is not changed when a loose ball is batted or kicked in the end zone.”
Until then, John Adams had interpreted that a loose ball traveling from an end zone back into the field of play, then, with no change in impetus, returning behind the goal line where it becomes dead, is the responsibility of the team that put the ball in the end zone originally.  So, under those circumstances, if team A carried, fumbled or backwardly passed the ball into their own end zone, the result would be a safety. If, under those circumstances, Team A fumbled, or backwardly passed the ball into B’s end zone, the result would be a touchback.
Bottom line at that time: Impetus was the action with/to the ball IN THE FIELD OF PLAY, that caused the ball to be behind a goal line, where it became dead.  An action with/to the ball in the end zone did not change the impetus.  At the time, a loose ball already behind a goal line that, by whatever means, happened to travel back into the field of play was still the responsibility of the team that last imparted impetus to the ball that put it from the field of play into the end zone.  Unless somebody gained player possession, or batted or kicked the ball in the field of play, that original impetus did not change. So, if it then crossed back into the end zone and became dead, the ruling was dependent upon who put it there originally.

But then Redding decided to change that.

In 2013, he eliminated the language mentioned, and interpreted that, if somebody batted or kicked the loose ball while it was in the end zone, and the ball travelled back into the field of play, such batting or kicking in the end zone imparted new impetus.  So, if the still loose ball then re-entered the end zone and became dead, the action imparting impetus in the end zone is now responsible.
That’s where we stand today.

I understand the rule, and will enforce it as interpreted. But, I will go on record as saying I think this was a bad change, and I simply don’t like it.  Adams’ interpretation was much simpler and cleaner.  Impetus was what put the ball from the field of play into an end zone where it became dead.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Try this
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2020, 04:44:30 AM »
A.R. 8-5-1-X probably clears things up a bit. Note the language "the impetus for the ball going into the end zone the second time."

Offline centexsports

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Re: Try this
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2020, 09:59:48 AM »
Interesting discussion.  I would probably have goofed the original up because:
a) The "B" player would have had to grossly batted at the ball for me to not call a safety. 
b) Even if I determined it was intentional, I would have had to discuss this with my HL (an Aggie engineer and a rule geek).  I don't know what we would have come up with.   
c) I don't think I could ever have ruled a touchback (just doesn't compute).  But where to enforce the penalty.   I think we would go to the PS.
d) I would not necessarily have given a first down.  If on the 1st down they had not gotten all the way back to the original line of scrimmage, we might have to measure.  Everybody knows that 2nd and 10 does not mean it is always exactly 10.

New question from second scenario:  The ball comes out of the end zone to the three yard line.  Two players (A&B) dive for the ball knocking it back behind the end zone and out the side line.   New impetus but no specific team.   What is the ruling?   Safety?   

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Try this
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2020, 10:54:04 AM »
No new impetus in your scenario. The original impetus is maintained even if the ball touches a player. 8-7-2-a. Muffing a loose ball only adds new impetus if the ball is at rest. 8-7-2-b-2. So B’s bat is still the impetus even if players attempt to recover it and muff it back into the end zone.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Try this
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2020, 12:15:56 PM »
No new impetus in your scenario. The original impetus is maintained even if the ball touches a player. 8-7-2-a. Muffing a loose ball only adds new impetus if the ball is at rest. 8-7-2-b-2. So B’s bat is still the impetus even if players attempt to recover it and muff it back into the end zone.

I'm gonna start a new thread regarding some of Redding's changes to Rule 8.

Offline dvasques

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Re: Try this
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2020, 05:31:01 PM »
I'm gonna start a new thread regarding some of Redding's changes to Rule 8.

Speaking of changes, anybody have a clue why AR 10-2-5 X and XI are the same, except for the lack of "unsportsmanlike conduct" in the text?

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Try this
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2020, 06:44:57 PM »
Can’t explain why they are both there.  You could discount X.