Author Topic: S/B Quiz 7  (Read 6040 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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S/B Quiz 7
« on: August 07, 2020, 11:04:02 AM »
1.  Team A (Visitors) scores a Touchdown with no time left on the game clock in the 4th quarter, and is behind 21 – 19.  On the try from the B-3, A16 completes a pass to A80 in the end zone.  B77 is rushing the QB and is unabated and makes forcible contact to A16’s knees as the pass is being thrown.   
 RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
Touchdown, 2 points for A (tying the score). Roughing the Passer by B77. The 15 yard (or 1/2 distance) penalty will be accepted and may (will) be enforced at the succeeding spot on the first possession series of the first Extra Period. Until the coin toss for the extra period, we don't know possession or yard line. Regardless, the play clock will be set to 25 seconds, and will start on the Referee's signal. No game clock.

2.  4/8 @ A-42.  A16’s punt is in the air and B80 is in position to make the catch at the B-20 when A30 contacts B80.  B80 muffs the ball due to the contact by A30 and the loose ball is recovered by B44 at the B-15 and he returns it across Team A’s goal line. 
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
B, Try, B-3, no game clock (25).
The kick catch interference foul by A30 is not a personal foul, and the penalty (15 yards or 1/2 the distance) can not be "tacked on" to the dead-ball spot or enforced on the Try. It can only be enforced at the spot of the foul - which would cancel the score - and Team B would never do that. Team B will decline the penalty, and the proceed with the Try. Due to completion of the penalty, the play clock is set to 25 seconds, and will start on the Referee's signal. The game clock does not run.


3. 1/10 @ A-15. Runner A44 attempts to stiff arm B35 but grabs and twists the facemask of B35 at the A20 before running out of bounds at the A-25.  After being well out of bounds, B35 shoves A44 to the ground.   
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
A, 1/10, A-25, RFP (25).
The 15 yard or 1/2 the distance penalty for A44's facemask foul is enforced according the 3 & 1 principle at the Basic Spot, the end of the related run (A-25). The spot of the foul is behind the Basic Spot, so the penalty will be enforced from the spot of the foul, 1/2 the distance, taking the ball to the A-10. The 15 yard penalty for B35's foul for unnecessary roughness would then be enforced at this temporary "succeeding" spot, taking the ball to the A-25. The penalty includes a first down for Team A. Due to the completion of the penalty, the play clock is set to 25 seconds and will start on the Referee's signal. The game clock will start on the referee's signal, unless the time remaining is less than 2:00 in the 2nd or 4th periods, in which case, it will start on the snap.
Note: This appears to be a UNR foul, not a UNS, so B35 does not get anything added to his UNS 'counter.'


4.  Free Kick @ A-35.  The kick is muffed by B80 at the B-10 and the ball rolls toward the end zone.  B80, while pursuing the loose ball, bats the ball backwards towards Team B’s end zone from the B-5, and the ball bounces over the end line.
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
B, Free Kick, B-20, Free Kick clock rules (25).
The batting by B80 is legal (not forward), but it does change the impetus on the ball that caused it become dead behind B's goal line. That results in a safety, 2 points for Team A. B will next put the ball in play by free kick at the B-20. The play clock is set to 25 seconds and will start on the referee's signal. The game clock will next start according to free kick timing rules.

 
5.  1/10 @ B-20. Late in the 1st half with the game clock running, lineman A75 fires out early. After the play is blown dead the game clock reads 0:08.  After the play is stopped, B45 pushes A75 to the ground. Team A has no timeouts remaining and Team B elects the 10-second runoff. 
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
The false start foul by A75 qualifies for the 10-second subtraction from the game clock, which Team B will surely accept. Thus, the half is over. The 15 yard penalty for B45's foul (which would seem to be an unsportsmanlike conduct foul - not unnecessary roughness) is then enforced at the kickoff for the 3rd period. The play clock is set to 25 seconds and starts on the Referee's signal, and the game clock starts according to free kick timing rules.
If this was B45's first UNS of the game, he may continue to participate, but he has "1" on his UNS 'counter.' If this was his second UNS, he is 'ejected' from the game.

 
6.  1/10 @ B-20. Late in the 1st half with the game clock running, lineman A75 fires out early. After the play is blown dead the game clock reads 0:08.  After the play is stopped, B45 pushes A75 to the ground. Team A has no timeouts remaining and Team B accepts the yardage penalty but declines the 10-second runoff. 
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
A, 1/10, B-12 1/2, snap (25).
The penalty for the false start foul by A75 takes the ball to the B-25. Since Team B declines the 10-second subtraction (but why would they? from B's 25? even if they are ahead in score? this is totally nonsensical), the penalty for B45's UNS would then be enforced at this 'temporary' succeeding spot, taking the ball to the B-12 1/2, with a first down for Team A. Since the 10-second subtraction is declined, the game clock will start on the snap (even more absurdity). The play clock is set to 25 seconds and will start on the Referee's signal.
If this was B45's first UNS of the game, he may continue to participate, but he has "1" on his UNS 'counter.' If this was his second UNS, he is 'ejected' from the game.

 
7.  4/10 @ A-30. Punter A47 muffs the snap but recovers the ball at the A-12 and at that spot attempts to get the punt off. A47 is hit by B44 as he attempts the kick but misses the ball. There is a scramble for the ball and A23 picks up the loose ball at the A-9 and runs to the A-41.
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
A, 1/10, A-41, RFP (40 and running after dead-ball).
There is no foul for running into or roughing the kicker, since there was no kick. All action is legal, and this is just a down with a three running plays ( 1) snap, 2) advance to attempt to kick, 3) recovery and advance by A23). A23 advances beyond the LTG, so the game clock stops until the ball is spotted, then starts on the referee's signal. The 40-second play clock should have started after the ball became dead with A23's advance
.

 See following posts for correct ruling (4th down fumble).

8.  4/17 @ B-43. A5’s punt bounces untouched on the B-3 and breaks the plane of Team B’s goal line where A85 bats the ball back into the field of play. B44 muffs the ball on the B-2 and A68 recovers on the B-6. The ball did not touch the ground in Team B’s end zone. During the kick, B55 committed a holding foul on the B-26.
RULING: ______________│______________│______________│______________
A, 4/7, B-33, snap (25).
A85 commits an illegal touching violation by batting the ball backward from the end zone, back into the field of play. When B44 muffs the ball, Team A is then eligible to touch/recover the ball (which they do). Since Team A is in legal possession of the ball at the end of the down, Team B, officially, will NOT next snap the ball, so post-scrimmage kick foul rules do not apply. If Team A declines the penalty for B55's holding foul, then Team B will invoke the illegal touching privilege, to take the ball at the B-20. Alternatively, Team A can accept the 10-yard penalty for B55's holding foul, enforced at the Basic Spot - the Previous Spot. That will take the ball to the B-33, and 4th down will be repeated. Due to the legal kick down, the game clock will start on the snap. The play clock will be set to 25-seconds, and will start on the Referee's signal.


All right, what did I screw up? :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 11:50:58 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline Snapper

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 03:27:22 PM »
Somebody just pointed out to me that in #7, we've got a 4th down fumble.

So I agree, that there is no Roughing.  But we have a fumble by A47.  The ball is dead when A23 recovers it at the A9.

B 1/G A9.  Snap.  25.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2020, 05:19:38 PM »
Somebody just pointed out to me that in #7, we've got a 4th down fumble.

So I agree, that there is no Roughing.  But we have a fumble by A47.  The ball is dead when A23 recovers it at the A9.

B 1/G A9.  Snap.  25.

You are so correct.  Good catch. This is the value of these quizzes.

Offline Chiefump

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2020, 05:44:17 PM »
Elvis I believe your answer on #7 was correct. This is not a fumble, it is a muffed backward pass and if I’m not mistaken anyone can advance a backward pass on a 4th down.

Offline Chiefump

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2020, 05:46:13 PM »
Disregard my last post. I just saw that he possessed the ball after the
Muff. My bad.

Offline Snapper

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2020, 08:02:43 AM »
You are so correct.  Good catch. This is the value of these quizzes.

Agreed.  The quizzes seem pretty good.  I find them fun to work out myself and then collaborate and find subtle things that I missed the first time.

I do wish that they'd stop throwing extraneous numbers into their questions.  All the player numbers and yardlines can get confusing, at least for me.  I wish they'd go back to using A1, A2, etc. when the player number doesn't have any bearing on the ruling.  Oh well, overall these quizzes and the CFO test this year are improvements over some that we've seen in the past.

Online Kalle

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2020, 12:41:56 PM »
I do wish that they'd stop throwing extraneous numbers into their questions.  All the player numbers and yardlines can get confusing, at least for me.  I wish they'd go back to using A1, A2, etc. when the player number doesn't have any bearing on the ruling.  Oh well, overall these quizzes and the CFO test this year are improvements over some that we've seen in the past.

I've started using the system Elvis suggested, where player numbers are 11, 22, 33 and so on, and yard lines are preferably 10, 20, 30... I find that to be least confusing.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2020, 01:15:07 PM »
Yeah, player numbers are tough enough, but we shouldn’t have to be math savants to figure out penalty enforcements. Keeping everything on a quiz in increments of 5 yards sure helps on quizzes.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 08:52:44 AM »
No surprise to me, but, together - kinda like a crew - we got these right.

But, No. 7 does raise an interesting question. If, at the moment the fumble occurs, no one recognizes that this is a fumble, and you allow the play to progress, then, after the ball is dead someone speaks up and says, "If that wasn't a kick, then it had to be a fumble," but no one has a spot of the fumble, then what? You really have no choice. You make the best 'estimate' (guess) that you can and place the ball there, and move on. As long as the LTG marker hasn't moved, you'll just have to replay the down in your mind and try to recall where the ball was possessed by A23 (not the punter/fumbler). If this was a case of the punter muffing the snap essentially in place, recovering there, then stepping forward to punt when he gets hit before his leg can contact the ball, well, that would be happening some 9-10 yards behind the NZ. You could probably get pretty close on that. But, if, as in the given down, the ball is muffed because the snap was high and goes over the punter's head, or similar, that is another story.
You just do the best you can. Team B won't care much, if you miss the spot a few yards. Team A might, but they should "get better" to avoid putting themselves in this position to begin with.

But, I truly believe that, if we remind ourselves (with or without any sort of crew 'reminder' signal) that this is 4th down, and the 4th down fumble rule applies, we'll get this.

Offline Snapper

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Re: S/B Quiz 7
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2020, 10:12:46 AM »
That's a good point regarding trying to figure out the spot.

I've given this play some thought.  In a 7-man (or less) game, the R is only one who is going to KNOW whether the player actually kicked the ball or not.  Sure, the LOS guys are going to have an opinion to share if needed after the play is over.  But during the play, if it's close whether or not he kicked it, then I think everybody else has to lay off and let the R rule.  Just like in a pass/fumble situation when the QB is getting hit.

However, if the LOS is really sharp, and think it might have been a fumble, they could drop a beanbag at the spot of the recovery and piece things together with the R afterwards.