Study Group questions

[dammitbobby]

Check my math please.  From a study group.

A3/15@A-30 The previous play was an INC pass. On third down B7 intercepts A1s pass at the A45 and returns it to the A-15, where he is hit and fumbles. A25 recovers the fumble at the A-12 and runs to the A-42. During A25s run, A55 holds at the A-28, Ruling? Clock?

The end result of the play is A25 recovering a fumble and returning it to the A42.

B7’s interception is with clean hands, no foul by B during or before the pass.

A25’s fumble recovery is with clean hands; the foul for holding occurred after the change of possession, so A can keep the ball.

The hold by A55 at the A-28 will be enforced, 3/1 principal says when the team in possession commits a foul behind the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul.  With the penalty 10 yards, it will be A’s Ball 1/10 at the A18.  Because this is a new series, after a change of possession, game clock will start on the snap, 25 second play clock.

A4/17@A-7. Near the end of the third period, A1s punt is blocked at the A-2 and bounces out the back of the EZ. While the ball is bouncing in the EZ, A55 holds B99 in the EZ. Time Expires in the third quarter during the play. Ruling? Clock? Options?

The result of the play is a safety.  B’s block of the scrimmage kick does not add new impetus to the ball, so A is ultimately responsible for the ball going through the back of the EZ. 

A55’s hold in the EZ would also create a safety (10-2-4). The penalty will likely be declined, and the next action will be a free kick from the A20 at the beginning of Q4. If the penalty is accepted, we repeat 4th down, at ½ the distance from the A-7, and will be an untimed down.  Game clock is irrelevant since untimed down, play clock will be 25 seconds.

[bctgp]

For the second question, why would you replay the down if the penalty is declined. As you said the result of the play is a safety.

[clearwall]

In 1, why are you starting on the snap? Team A is awarded a first down through play.

e. Starts on the Referee’s Signal. For each of the following reasons, the game
clock is stopped on an official’s signal. If the next play begins with a
snap, the game clock will start on the referee’s signal:
1. Team A is awarded a first down, either through play or by penalty.

[dammitbobby]

For the second question, why would you replay the down if the penalty is declined. As you said the result of the play is a safety.

I wrote those backwards (accept/decline), fixed now.

[dammitbobby]

In 1, why are you starting on the snap? Team A is awarded a first down through play.

Because there was a change of possession.

[clearwall]

But team A is next to put the ball in play, not B. From the 2017 Redding Guide (a few years old but I dont believe this rule has changed since then IIRC correctly):

https://imgur.com/8JTyz0i.jpg
https://imgur.com/0dsYBNJ.jpg

[dammitbobby]

You're right.  the 2020 Redding manual has this as well, it's 7-18 (not 7-17). 

Thanks!

[ElvisLives]

Before Redding, yes, the apparent COP would have resulted in the clock starting on the snap. But soon after Redding got the job, he changed this. If the award of a new series to A is the only reason to stop the clock, then the game clock next starts on the referee’s signal.

[ump_ben]

I wrote those backwards (accept/decline), fixed now.

Changing it doesn't help.  The result of the play was a safety because the ball went out of the endzone.  The result of the penalty is a safety, holding in the endzone.  If accepted, you have a safety.  If accepted you would have an untimed down for the free kick (I think), because the penalty for holding in the endzone doesn't specify lod.  If I'm correct about that last, you're going to have to ask the coach which way he wants the other team kicking because that will decide whether he takes the penalty or not.

[Kalle]

In 1, why are you starting on the snap? Team A is awarded a first down through play.

Also, the 40s play clock should start when the ball becomes dead.

[ElvisLives]

Also, the 40s play clock should start when the ball becomes dead.

Correct, and there ain’t a single PCO at west Texas High schools that know this.

[JasonTX]

Also, the 40s play clock should start when the ball becomes dead.

Except in this play there was a foul so we will need to complete the penalty, which will yield a 25 second play clock. 

[Kalle]

Except in this play there was a foul so we will need to complete the penalty, which will yield a 25 second play clock.

Damn, obviously.

[dammitbobby]

Changing it doesn't help.  The result of the play was a safety because the ball went out of the endzone.  The result of the penalty is a safety, holding in the endzone.  If accepted, you have a safety.  If accepted you would have an untimed down for the free kick (I think), because the penalty for holding in the endzone doesn't specify lod.  If I'm correct about that last, you're going to have to ask the coach which way he wants the other team kicking because that will decide whether he takes the penalty or not.

3-2-3-a: 
A period shall be extended for an untimed down if one or more of the following occurs during a down in which time expires (A.R. 3-2-3-I-VIII):
1. A penalty is accepted for a live-ball foul(s) (Exception: Rule 10-2-5-a). The period is not extended if the foul is by the team in possession and the statement of the penalty includes loss of down (A.R. 3-2-3-VIII).
2. There are offsetting fouls.
3. An official sounds his whistle inadvertently or otherwise incorrectly signals the ball dead.
b. Additional untimed downs will be played until a down is free of the circumstances in statements 1, 2 and 3 of Rule 3-2-3-a (above).
c. If a touchdown is scored during a down in which time in a period expires, the period is extended for the try (Exception: Rule 8-3-2-a).

So yes, the free kick would be the untimed down.  Heh.  Never even thought about having to ask which end of the field he wants to kick from.

And I see now why it would have to be accepted to not replay the down.  What was tripping me up, was that there were two independent conditions that caused the safety, and only one was tied to the foul.  As you pointed out, you can't decline the condition tied to the safety, without declining the other one as well.

[Covid 22]

With the ball loose in the end zone, can a player grab another player to keep him from recovering the loose ball?

[ElvisLives]

Damn, obviously.

Double dang.

But, if we have a true A-B-A situation, with no other complicating factors, the play clock is 40, and starts when the ball becomes dead.

[dammitbobby]

With the ball loose in the end zone, can a player grab another player to keep him from recovering the loose ball?

I don't have a rule reference but my understanding is that loose ball plays are pretty much free for alls, in terms of holding... that said, if he physically grabs him around the waist, in a bear hug, to prevent him from getting to the ball, without trying to get to the ball himself, my instinct says to flag that.   

[Covid 22]

That is my understanding also.   So I was wondering why there would be a holding flag on "A" after and behind the kick.   

[Legacy Zebra]

Y’all may be thinking of the block in the back rule. It is true that a player who is eligible to touch a loose ball may legally block an opponent in the back if the block is made in an effort to get to the ball. However, there is such exception for holding. 9-3-3 and -4 for offensive and defensive holding, 9-3-6 for block in the back.