Enforcement spot - blocked FG attempt

[sirhoagy]

This was posted to a rules discussion meeting. 
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4th/10 @ B-16. A91’s FG is blocked @ LOS, and lands @ B-2 before rolling into the end zone.

B1 recovers the loose ball in the EZ and returns it for a touchdown.

B12 holds during the return @ 50 YL.

RULING?


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I'm withholding the 'official' ruling at this time as I'm curious to see how others are processing this play.  I've heard two other answers (and I agree with one of them) but the  'official' answer is admittedly being missed by me.   

[ElvisLives]

Bad officiating.

The ball - a scrimmage kick untouched by B beyond the NZ that touches the ground on or beyond B’s goal line is dead immediately, and is an unsuccessful FG attempt, and, in this case, would be placed at the B-20, B, 1/10. The foul is dead ball. It is not a safety foul. I would ignore it, and move on.

[bossman72]

Bad officiating.

The ball - a scrimmage kick untouched by B beyond the NZ that touches the ground on or beyond B’s goal line is dead immediately, and is an unsuccessful FG attempt, and, in this case, would be placed at the B-20, B, 1/10. The foul is dead ball. It is not a safety foul. I would ignore it, and move on.

Agree.

[clearwall]

Bad officiating.

The ball - a scrimmage kick untouched by B beyond the NZ that touches the ground on or beyond B’s goal line is dead immediately, and is an unsuccessful FG attempt, and, in this case, would be placed at the B-20, B, 1/10. The foul is dead ball. It is not a safety foul. I would ignore it, and move on.

True BUT you still should understand the intent of this question (though I agree with you). The basic spot for a running play that has no NZ is the spot where the run ends. This is the EZ. The foul occurred behind the basic spot, so enforce at the spot of the foul.

I had a question that I argued the same way you did, Elvis, in a test I took a few weeks ago.
A 1/10 @ A30. Defensive Lineman B96 jumps the snap and is in the offensive backfield where back A22 reaches out to touch him. Ruling?
Answer on the quiz was FS, A1/15 at the A25. I argued, "how in the hell are you letting a defensive lineman unabated in the backfield and not killing it and calling DOF?"

[Kalle]

Bad officiating.

The ball - a scrimmage kick untouched by B beyond the NZ that touches the ground on or beyond B’s goal line is dead immediately, and is an unsuccessful FG attempt, and, in this case, would be placed at the B-20, B, 1/10. The foul is dead ball. It is not a safety foul. I would ignore it, and move on.

I think there is no foul here as holding is not a dead-ball foul. The personal foul types of actions are fouls even if committed while the ball is dead, that's why you enforce those in these situations where the officials incorrectly let the action continue and then later figure out their error and correct it.

If you are really mean you can of course enforce the delay of game foul on team B, but most likely your supervisor will not like that.

[ElvisLives]

True BUT you still should understand the intent of this question (though I agree with you). The basic spot for a running play that has no NZ is the spot where the run ends. This is the EZ. The foul occurred behind the basic spot, so enforce at the spot of the foul.

If that is the "intent of the question," then it sounds to me like the author doesn't understand kicking game rules well enough to be writing questions. This rule is far too basic to to justify the "Well, everybody knew what I meant" defense. In the first place, no, not everybody knew what was meant. Secondly, if B recovered at the B-2, or caught/recovered the ball before it touched the ground in the end zone, and then advanced as described, then you've got your "intended result." Huge difference from the ball rolling into the end zone (i.e., touching the ground).

"This is the end zone."  What does that mean? If B is able to legally initiate a run, whether from the end zone or from the field of play, the important element is the 'end of the related run' (as it is related to the described holding foul).  In this case, the related run ended at A's goal line, so the Basic Spot is A's goal line, and, by 3 & 1, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

[sirhoagy]

The "correct" ruling is that the ball is dead, belongs to B, 1/10 @ B-20.

This really tossed me for a loop 'cause my brain wasn't seeing it was a .... trick? 

The ball is dead *by rule* but the way it's written, my brain didn't bother to take it through all the logical steps.

Kicked ball...blocked...lands at B-2 rolls into EZ.  BOOM!  Dead ball, 1/10 @ B-20

But, the way it's written, it's a "trick" - there should have been a whistle and the play killed.  There wasn't.
Thus, because of the way it's written, my brain didn't digest it properly.  I have a habit of getting tripped up on *written* questions. 
Had this been a real play/game with me in it, it would have literally been a no-brainer.
But, as written, I was positive I was grossly misunderstanding a rule/penalty enforcement.

Today, I now see it clearly - can't believe I didn't see it sooner. 

That aside, the question (I didn't write it, it's not mine) is written poorly and I *think* it's written just to create a brain scramble and get you thinking 'outside of the box.'  I'd not want to the be white-hat who has to turn on the microphone and explain to the fans that we didn't blow the play dead and there's no score, even though we all ran upfield to toss a flag on a hold and met the ball-carrier at the goal line.

[sirhoagy]

A 1/10 @ A30. Defensive Lineman B96 jumps the snap and is in the offensive backfield where back A22 reaches out to touch him. Ruling?
Answer on the quiz was FS, A1/15 at the A25. I argued, "how in the hell are you letting a defensive lineman unabated in the backfield and not killing it and calling DOF?"

Um....talked with my crew about this, also tossed this to my assigner.  None of us based on the description above would call that a false start. 

That's.....yeah, no.

[ElvisLives]

I think there is no foul here as holding is not a dead-ball foul. The personal foul types of actions are fouls even if committed while the ball is dead, that's why you enforce those in these situations where the officials incorrectly let the action continue and then later figure out their error and correct it.

If you are really mean you can of course enforce the delay of game foul on team B, but most likely your supervisor will not like that.

Kalle is totally right (as usual  ), and I got to trying to point to rule language that made holding (and other non-personal or non-unsportsmanlike conduct fouls) a live-ball only foul. Not that difficult, really. A ball carrier is only a ball carrier when the ball is live (2-27-7). Teammates of the ball carrier may not hold an opponent (9-3-3-b). Therefore, the ball must be live for there to be a holding foul.
So, in the given question, there is no foul, by rule. Now, could that ‘hold’ turn into a UNS or UNR? Surely, if the action warrants, and those would be dead-ball.