Author Topic: RTP and fumble  (Read 1051 times)

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Offline alter mann

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RTP and fumble
« on: June 16, 2021, 05:54:05 AM »
1. 4/4 @ A48. A-9 throws a forward pass, that is caught by A-80 at the B45. A-80 fumbles and A-70 recovers at the B43. A-9 was roughed by B-12.

2. 4/4 @ A48. A-9 throws a forward pass, that is caught by A-80 at the B45. A-80 fumbles and A-70 recovers at the A48. A-9 was roughed by B-12.

What's your call?

Offline Kalle

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 06:12:09 AM »
The order to resolve this is first deal with the 4th down fumble rule and then with the penalty.

1. Return the ball to B45. The apparent run by A-70 disappears. The end of the last run (by A-80) is beyond the neutral zone, so enforce from there. Team A 1/10@B30.

2. The ball stays at A48, and the last run is by A-70. This is not beyond the neutral zone, so enforce from the previous spot. Team A 1/10@B37.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2021, 06:44:34 PM »
Quote
Return the ball to B45. The apparent run by A-70 disappears. The end of the last run (by A-80) is beyond the neutral zone, so enforce from there. Team A 1/10@B30.

I'm late to the party, but I'm going to disagree with this one. This is not just an "apparent" run by A-70, it is a run by rule. The end of that run is the B-43. That is where the rules say to enforce the penalty from, the end of the last run. Would the ball go back to the B-45 if there were no RPS? Yes. But the ball would also go over to Team B in the second question since A was short of the line to gain. Why would this be any different?

Offline copedaddy

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2021, 08:37:43 PM »
Isn't the play dead when recovered by A70?

Offline Kalle

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2021, 09:39:17 AM »
Isn't the play dead when recovered by A70?

It is, but that has no bearing on this. See eg. A.R. 2-30-4-II. The real question is how should we treat the 4th down fumble recovery in advance of the spot of the fumble. Is it like LZ said a "real" / "valid" run for penalty enforcement, or do we treat it like we treat fumbles out of bounds in advance of the spot of the fumble. Based on my track record in trying to guess the rules makers' intent, I'm willing to bet that I'm wrong and LZ is (as usual) right :)

Offline ref6983

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2021, 10:12:13 AM »
I'm late to the party, but I'm going to disagree with this one. This is not just an "apparent" run by A-70, it is a run by rule. The end of that run is the B-43. That is where the rules say to enforce the penalty from, the end of the last run. Would the ball go back to the B-45 if there were no RPS? Yes. But the ball would also go over to Team B in the second question since A was short of the line to gain. Why would this be any different?

This would be a bizarre interpretation if it is correct. The intent of the 4th down fumble rule is to never allow A to gain yardage when a player fumbles. If you enforce from the recovery spot, then A has gained yardage not intended by rule.

Also, in this scenario, what if A70 recovers in B's end zone? Then you have the enforcement spot in the end zone. TD for A and enforce on the KO/try? Doesn't seem likely, but it certainly cannot be enforced at the recovery spot.

Offline Kalle

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2021, 12:06:19 PM »
This would be a bizarre interpretation if it is correct. The intent of the 4th down fumble rule is to never allow A to gain yardage when a player fumbles. If you enforce from the recovery spot, then A has gained yardage not intended by rule.

Well, we have a 4th down fumble by team A and a (PF) foul by team B, and you can plausibly (IMO) say that the foul is the greater wrong here, thus allowing enforcement from the spot of the recovery.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 02:49:32 PM »
Well, we have a 4th down fumble by team A and a (PF) foul by team B, and you can plausibly (IMO) say that the foul is the greater wrong here, thus allowing enforcement from the spot of the recovery.

So in the scenario that ref6983 posed with the 4th fumble ending in a TD, would you allow the TD to stand and then deal with the penalty?

Normally when they want us to ignore a rule they add an exception to it.  The rules dealing with the 4th down fumble rule do not have any exceptions to them that would suggest we ignore it when there is an accepted penalty.  The way I read it the rules tell us that when a teammate of the fumbler catches or recovers the ball on 4th down or a Try, the ball becomes dead immediately and returns to the spot of the fumble if in advance.  This happens before we even know there are fouls.  Mechanically, we aren't holding onto the spot when the ball is caught or recovered in advance, we are simply bringing the ball back to the spot of the fumble and that would be the end of the last run IMO.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 04:23:48 PM »
I'm in the camp that says we take it back to the spot of the fumble, then complete the penalty. But, none of us have positive knowledge of the ruling for this scenario. There was a time when I could get a quick ruling from John Adams, as he was quite responsive to rule queries. However, that does not seem to be the case, today.
Perhaps if we all sent this question to sdshaw.cfo@gmail.com, he might get the idea that this is a question that needs an answer.

Revised question with yard lines that make the math easier:

4/5, A-40. End A80 catches (by full definition) a legal forward pass at the A-42 and advances to the A-44 where he fumbles the ball. A70 recovers the ball at the 50. B99 was flagged for roughing the passer.
Ruling:

Offline JasonTX

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2021, 04:32:04 PM »
I'm in the camp that says we take it back to the spot of the fumble, then complete the penalty. But, none of us have positive knowledge of the ruling for this scenario. There was a time when I could get a quick ruling from John Adams, as he was quite responsive to rule queries. However, that does not seem to be the case, today.
Perhaps if we all sent this question to sdshaw.cfo@gmail.com, he might get the idea that this is a question that needs an answer.

Revised question with yard lines that make the math easier:

4/5, A-40. End A80 catches (by full definition) a legal forward pass at the A-42 and advances to the A-44 where he fumbles the ball. A70 recovers the ball at the 50. B99 was flagged for roughing the passer.
Ruling:


I fired off an email a hour ago to him.  Will see if a response comes.

Offline Grant - AR

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 04:43:57 PM »
I agree with Kalle's original answer and bringing the ball back to the spot of the fumble.  The exceptions to Rule 7-2-2-a say the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble on 4th down in this case.  We penalize the roughing from there. 

Offline Etref

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2021, 10:34:24 PM »
There was a time when I could get a quick ruling from John Adams, as he was quite responsive

We date ourselves.

Most of the guys working now think John Adamís was one of the Founding Fathers!   ;D
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline JasonTX

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 10:49:17 PM »
We date ourselves.

Most of the guys working now think John Adamís was one of the Founding Fathers!   ;D

You aren't far off.   ;D

Offline JasonTX

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2021, 02:44:57 PM »
I just received a reply to this question from Shaw.  Someone else also sent him an inquiry.  I suspect it was someone who was following this thread.  I will copy and paste the whole reply.  It includes the plays someone else sent as well as mine.

"Jason Ė

I recently received a similar request below Ė Letís look at it 1st:
 
A request for ruling on the scrimmage down following would be helpful to many of us who are not certain as to the enforcement spot for the Roughing the Passer penalty, when the Ďfourth down fumble ruleí must also be considered:

 
End A80 catches (by full definition) a legal forward pass at the A-42 and advances to the A-44 where he fumbles the ball. A70 recovers the ball at the 50. B99 was flagged for roughing the passer.

 
Ruling:  The roughing the passer penalty is added to the end of the last run when the run ends beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of possession during the down (Rule 9-1-9-a&b).  In your play the 4th down fumble rule is in effect so A80ís fumble at the A-44 is recovered beyond the spot of the fumble at the fifty by A70, so there is a forward fumble and no change of possession during the down.  The ball will be returned to the spot of the fumble at the A-44 (Rule 7-2-2-a, Exception 2).  Enforce a 15-yard penalty from the A-44, and it will be 1/10 @ B-41.

 
The play you describe:

4th and 10 at the B-30.  A10 takes the snap and throws a legal forward pass that is caught by A80 on the B-5.  He is hit and fumbles the ball forward where it is recovered by A20 while grounded at the B-1.  A flag was thrown for roughing the passer.  Ruling?

The penalty will be enforced from the A5, Ĺ the distance to the goal and an automatic 1st down.

 Same play except the fumble is recovered in the end zone for an apparent TD.  Ruling?

Same as above, the penalty will be enforced from the A5, Ĺ the distance to the goal and an automatic 1st down.

 If the forward fumble went into the end zone and was recovered by a Team B player, then the enforcement would be at the previous spot because there was a change in possession during the down."

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2021, 02:49:47 PM »
Piling on, here.

Here is the reply I got. I am amazed - and impressed - that we got such reasonably quick replies.
--------------------------------

Robert Ė
The roughing the passer penalty is added to the end of the last run when the run ends beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of possession during the down (Rule 9-1-9-a&b).  In your play the 4th down fumble rule is in effect so A80ís fumble at the A-44 is recovered beyond the spot of the fumble at the fifty by A70, so there is a forward fumble and no change of possession during the down.  The ball will be returned to the spot of the fumble at the A-44 (Rule 7-2-2-a, Exception 2).  Enforce a 15-yard penalty from the A-44, and it will be 1/10 @ B-41.

Let me know if you have questions or need further discussion.

Steve Shaw
CFO National Coordinator of Football Officials
Secretary-Rules Editor, NCAA Football Rules Committee
--------------------

So, as Kalle stated, take care of the 4th down fumble first, then enforce the penalty.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2021, 06:14:10 PM »
Let's see if we are able to turn this into a bulletin play and furure AR.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2021, 07:43:49 PM »
Let's see if we are able to turn this into a bulletin play and furure AR.

With the edited AR, I donít see the need for another AR.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2021, 09:17:12 PM »
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Glad we got an official answer.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2021, 09:24:52 PM »
With the edited AR, I donít see the need for another AR.
The edited AR was on the illegally kicking the ball situation on that other thread.   This 4th down fumble play isn't on an AR.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: RTP and fumble
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 05:30:21 AM »
The edited AR was on the illegally kicking the ball situation on that other thread.   This 4th down fumble play isn't on an AR.

Embarrassed. Getting my threads confused. Sorry.