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Offline JasonTX

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Moving the Ball
« on: July 23, 2021, 12:17:02 PM »
Team A set the ball on the tee at Position 1 for the free kick.  The referee makes the ball ready for play.  A90 relocates the ball with the tee, to Position 2.  The coaches begin yelling at him telling him he can't move it.  He then takes the ball back to Position 1 and then kicks the ball.  Ruling?
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2021, 12:37:33 PM »
Considering that relocating the ball is a dead-ball foul, I'd say that the foul happens when the ball and the tee are moved. I would not be hugely surprised, though, if the actual ruling is that the foul happens only when the relocated ball is kicked with the ball remaining dead.
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2021, 01:11:09 PM »
AR 6-1-2-VIII is not absolutely clear, but 1) the fact that the ball gets kicked in this AR, and 2) Team A should always have the opportunity to buy themselves out of this foul by requesting a team timeout, it is my considered opinion that the ball must get kicked, but then the covering officials will sound their whistles, throw their flag(s), and stop all action, and complete the penalty as a dead-ball foul. No different than if the kicker does a ‘bounce kick,” which we know follows this protocol.
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Offline JasonTX

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2021, 02:18:04 PM »
I agree that the ball has to be kicked before it's a foul, since the foul is an illegal kick.  Flag and Whistle.  But, in my play, would we flag it if he "corrected" his error by moving the ball back to the original position?
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2021, 02:42:47 PM »
On the conclusion that relocating the kick spot is not a foul unless the ball is actually kicked, I would say - without authority, mind you - that there is no foul, if the ball is eventually kicked from the original kick spot.

IMHO, the only advantage Team A could gain by 'appearing' to relocate the kick spot is to confuse B, and get them to shift their receivers, or catch them off-guard and not 'settled' when they quickly move the ball back to the original kick point, and quickly kick the ball.  But, if Team B knows the rules (ha!), then they should know that Team A may not relocate the kick point, and they should just 'stay put,' secure in the knowledge that Team A won't be able to get away with kicking the ball from an alternate kick point. By staying put, they will be in good positions when Team A moves the ball back to the original kick point, and kicks the ball.  No advantage gained. But , then, if WE know the rules, we'll stop this action at the kick, and Team A does not get an advantage, anyway.

Let's count the number of coaches that know this rule. Let's see...uh, one...no, not him.  Uh...uh...uh................
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 08:29:45 AM »
Interestingly the A.R. says that this is a live-ball foul (and gives the usual options for a team A foul during a kick), but the actual penalty statement says dead-ball. Which is correct...?
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2021, 08:41:39 AM »
Quote from: Kalle on July 24, 2021, 08:29:45 AM
Interestingly the A.R. says that this is a live-ball foul (and gives the usual options for a team A foul during a kick), but the actual penalty statement says dead-ball. Which is correct...?

Kalle, do you have the 2021 book? By editorial change, AR 6-1-2-VIII now says dead ball foul.
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Offline MAFBRef

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2021, 12:29:41 PM »
The last sentence of 6-1-2a states, "After the ready-for-play signal, the ball may only be relocated after a charged timeout or during a subsequent kick."  By that, the moment the kicker picks up the ball, he has committed the dead ball foul.  The play is dead whether he gets the kick off or not.
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Offline JasonTX

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Re: Moving the Ball
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2021, 02:59:28 PM »
Quote from: MAFBRef on July 25, 2021, 12:29:41 PM
The last sentence of 6-1-2a states, "After the ready-for-play signal, the ball may only be relocated after a charged timeout or during a subsequent kick."  By that, the moment the kicker picks up the ball, he has committed the dead ball foul.  The play is dead whether he gets the kick off or not.

It's hard to have an illegal kick if you don't actually kick it.  Even the mention of moving the ball after a "subsequent" kick, would indicate that we had a prior kick.  The definition of what is a legal kick and what isn't is what I think is the key.   

2-16-1-b tells us that a legal kick must be made according to the rules.  Kicking the ball in any other manner is illegal.  This kick wasn't made according to the rules because it was kicked after being relocated.
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