ISU TD and UNS

[TXMike]

Let’s see where this takes us . There is a developing uproar about “taking away the TD”. https://twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1452026589416497157?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1452026589416497157%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthespun.com%2Fcollege-football%2Fcollege-football-world-reacts-to-refs-taking-away-isu-td-for-celebration

[PTReferee]

Not enough there for that foul,  IMHO.

[bama_stripes]

That wouldn’t ring my radar.

[ElvisLives]

I don’t have to make that call at the FBS level any more, but, personally, I like it. He turns to see where the opponents are. Nothing wrong with that. But then he deliberately alters his stride in a “look at me” action (drawing attention to himself). That is supposed to be a foul.
This is the kind of sportsmanship that has been compromised ever since cable TV got so many teams on TV every week, and pay the NCAA, the conferences, and the teams so much. It is out of control.
The coach gets upset, but it is 100% his fault. If they want a 100% guarantee that this call won’t be made, all they have to do is teach their players to just run directly into the end zone in a full run, and after they get several steps in, drop the ball or, better yet, hand the ball to an official, then go jump up and down with their teammates, chest bump, high five, hug, and then run off the field.
I applaud the guy that had the courage to make this call. Even though I’m sure his coordinator will grade this as an IC, and tell the coach this should not have been called, and this official will be disciplined.
Hope I’m wrong.

[TxBJ]

Definitely not enough there for UNS.

[Grant - AR]

I applaud the guy that had the courage to make this call. Even though I’m sure his coordinator will grade this as an IC, and tell the coach this should not have been called, and this official will be disciplined.
Hope I’m wrong.

I don't think there is nearly enough there to call taunting on this play.

Elvis, I quoted you because I'm 99% sure my supervisor would not grade it as an incorrect call (incorrect judgement maybe) or discipline the official for making this call.  It would just show up on our training film the next week with a comment like, "Guys, this isn't big enough to be taunting.  Make it much bigger than this." 

[peterparsons]

I'm with Elvis on this one. The book says that "An unopposed ball carrier obviously altering stride as he approaches the opponent's goal line" commits a foul. Maybe an MC, but grading it an IC would be going against what the book says.

The kid asked the covering official to make a decision, and, as I always tell players and coaches "if you ask me to make a decision, there's a chance I'll make one you don't like, so the best thing to do is not ask me to make the decision in the first place". That's what the kid should have done and that's what his coaches should have coached him to do.

[zebrastripes]

I bet next year we will see a revision to the rule to the tune of “The action must be clearly intended to taunt an opponent in order to be a foul.”

[peterparsons]

I bet next year we will see a revision to the rule to the tune of “The action must be clearly intended to taunt an opponent in order to be a foul.”

And how is it possible judge clear intent?

The kid clearly changed his stride pattern in the field of play when he had no need to. The best solution to this is to coach the kids better.

[Grant - AR]

And how is it possible judge clear intent?

The kid clearly changed his stride pattern in the field of play when he had no need to. The best solution to this is to coach the kids better.

So, are you going to flag a player for slowing down because no one is within 15 yards of him?  He would have to alter his stride to slow down. 

As a wise man once told me, don't try to pick the fly crap out of the pepper.  I think we are trying to do that if we flag this.  The player didn't turn around and point at an defender.  He didn't turn and run sideways.  He didn't make a mockery of the game.  This is one that we should stay far away from.

With that said...if your supervisor shows this play and says he wants it, do what he asks. 

[TxBJ]

Steve Shaw's weekly video says no foul.  But like others have said, do what your boss tells you.

[ElvisLives]

Not unexpected. I just lament the deterioration of sportsmanship in what used to be a very sportsman's game.

[peterparsons]

The words on the video are "just not enough for a foul" which, to me, is not the same as "no foul". That suggests an MC to me, correct by rule, but not by philosophy. It also raises the question of how much is enough? Is it how much higher the kid raises his knees? How much further the kid kicks out his leading foot when he doesn't need to? The percentage change in his stride distance?

Of course, if the kid had just run into the end zone, there wouldn't be a discussion to be had, so I still put this back on the coaches to deal with. Coach the kids better and this issue goes away.

[ElvisLives]

The big problem with failure to support this call is that it continues to expand the boundary of acceptable allowable behavior, which requires officials to apply even greater judgment as to where the line is drawn. Shaw states that UNS is still a point of emphasis, then states that this isn't big enough. What is big enough? My opinion doesn't count, but, IMHO, if the action isn't necessary, and it is done to draw attention to oneself (as it was in this case), that should be considered unsportsmanlike, and should be a foul - not matter how "big."
So, now, the next guy breaks away, and gets to the two yard line and decides to completely unnecessarily launch himself in a pseudo-dive over the goal line - we gotta let that go?

It is out of control, and we'll never regain control. 

[ilyazhito]

The words on the video are "just not enough for a foul" which, to me, is not the same as "no foul". That suggests an MC to me, correct by rule, but not by philosophy. It also raises the question of how much is enough? Is it how much higher the kid raises his knees? How much further the kid kicks out his leading foot when he doesn't need to? The percentage change in his stride distance?

Of course, if the kid had just run into the end zone, there wouldn't be a discussion to be had, so I still put this back on the coaches to deal with. Coach the kids better and this issue goes away.

I may be a minority here, but I would actually reward the official for this call. I would say it is a correct call, because the offensive player did alter his stride and turn around to talk to his opponents before entering the end zone.

[TXMike]

I may be a minority here, but I would actually reward the official for this call. I would say it is a correct call, because the offensive player did alter his stride and turn around to talk to his opponents before entering the end zone.

What did he say to the opponents? 😀. The guy took one over-stride from the 5 to about the 2 after checking to see how close the pursuers were.  Like SS said, yea it was technically an altered stride but is that the intent of the rule ?   Would a “talking to” have sufficed here ?

[ilyazhito]

I can't hear, because the TV feed does not have an audio component. That said, the player turns around and appears to say something to the opponent. The on-field official who made the call heard what the player said, and he deemed the player's turning around to face the opponent, his altering stride, and him saying something to the opponents to be taunting. Based on the evidence provided here, I have to support the call on the field.

[TXMike]

You have incredible vision if you can see inside his helmet and see his lips move from this crappy video.   How do you know the official heard anything?  Maybe he just based the call on the "altered stride" ?  Would that be enough for you or would he also have had to talk to the opponent?

[NVFOA_Ump]

You have incredible vision if you can see inside his helmet and see his lips move from this crappy video.   How do you know the official heard anything?  Maybe he just based the call on the "altered stride" ?  Would that be enough for you or would he also have had to talk to the opponent?

Wow, I'm glad that you KNOW that the official who was right on the call didn't hear anything.  That's really good to know.  Thanks for that great insight into what really happened.

[TXMike]

Even if the player said anything he would have needed a bullhorn for any opponents to hear him as far away as he was.  I never said he didn’t hear anything  anyway.  That’s why I asked how he knew the official heard anything . And none of the post game commentary has indicated anything was said. “They said they felt like he high-stepped and that was enough to cause the penalty,” Campbell said after Saturday’s game. “If that is, man, that’ll be a great learning opportunity for us and we’ll grow from it. The last thing that Xavier Hutchinson is is selfish.”

[CalhounLJ]

I don’t have to make that call at the FBS level any more, but, personally, I like it. He turns to see where the opponents are. Nothing wrong with that. But then he deliberately alters his stride in a “look at me” action (drawing attention to himself). That is supposed to be a foul.
This is the kind of sportsmanship that has been compromised ever since cable TV got so many teams on TV every week, and pay the NCAA, the conferences, and the teams so much. It is out of control.
The coach gets upset, but it is 100% his fault. If they want a 100% guarantee that this call won’t be made, all they have to do is teach their players to just run directly into the end zone in a full run, and after they get several steps in, drop the ball or, better yet, hand the ball to an official, then go jump up and down with their teammates, chest bump, high five, hug, and then run off the field.
I applaud the guy that had the courage to make this call. Even though I’m sure his coordinator will grade this as an IC, and tell the coach this should not have been called, and this official will be disciplined.
Hope I’m wrong.

I’m interested in the last phrase. How are NCAA officials disciplined for an IC? Serious question.


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[ElvisLives]

I’m interested in the last phrase. How are NCAA officials disciplined for an IC? Serious question.


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That could range anywhere from just a verbal “That’s not what we want” to an immediate dismissal. If the coordinator follows Shaw’s opinion, this would be more on the former end. And, with a good coordinator, that would be the end of it. No impact on any future assignment.
FYI, I had the best coordinator of all time.

[CalhounLJ]

Thanks for the response. Seems like discipline without teeth. Do you all have an objective system in place to weed out those who can’t cut it? Or is it left up to the coordinator? I’m not looking to bash, but to understand. In my association at the HS level, there is basically no accountability. Coaches send me film which I pass on to the crews and the assignor but nothing ever comes of it.  And I’ve seen some terrible officiating at both levels this year. And been a part of some as well.  #confession #goodforthesoul


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[ElvisLives]

Thanks for the response. Seems like discipline without teeth. Do you all have an objective system in place to weed out those who can’t cut it? Or is it left up to the coordinator? I’m not looking to bash, but to understand. In my association at the HS level, there is basically no accountability. Coaches send me film which I pass on to the crews and the assignor but nothing ever comes of it.  And I’ve seen some terrible officiating at both levels this year. And been a part of some as well.  #confession #goodforthesoul


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Plenty of teeth, depending on the level of error(s)/performance. Plenty of instances of officials/crews being suspended for one or more assignments due to on-field ‘issues.’ One season, I picked up a game when a crew was suspended for a game due to a timing issue in their previous game. Ironically, at least one official on that crew went on to work two national championship games.
There have been disciplinary actions on officials when they messed up the downs. Messed up downs and timing are some of the worst errors that can be made.
Never saw anybody fired in mid-season, but I believe that has happened. I know of some guys that were not re-hired for a following season, based on a history of sub-par performance.
Plenty of teeth, when justified.

[JasonTX]

Thanks for the response. Seems like discipline without teeth. Do you all have an objective system in place to weed out those who can’t cut it? Or is it left up to the coordinator? I’m not looking to bash, but to understand. In my association at the HS level, there is basically no accountability. Coaches send me film which I pass on to the crews and the assignor but nothing ever comes of it.  And I’ve seen some terrible officiating at both levels this year. And been a part of some as well.  #confession #goodforthesoul


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In high school if you suspend someone you'll be left without a person on the field and a game without officials.  Coaches might complain about officials but when it comes down to it they just want someone to officiate their game, even it's with those who "can't cut it".