Play of the Day

[ElvisLives]

It is so quiet around here. Here. Try this:

K/O, A-35, 6:00 (1), A=7, B=0.
A99 legally kicks the ball short (“pooch” style). While the ball is in flight, A88 runs around B77 at the 50, and, without contact by any B player, runs into the restricted area along Team A’s sideline. The ball has landed at the B-45 near the sideline when A88 returns to the field of play at the B-45, where he bats the ball at the B-40, and the ball travels to the B-45, where A88 blocks B77 above the waist from the front, preventing B77 from recovering the ball. A66 recovers the ball while ‘grounded’ at the B-45. The game clocks reads 5:56.

Ruling:
(Provide complete rationale for all events in the down.)

[dammitbobby]

Let's see how I did...

Result of the play is the kick being recovered by A66 at the B-45.  However, since B had not touched the ball prior, this is the second illegal touching violation (the first was the illegal bat at the B-45).  So, regardless of the outcome of the fouls, we know that A cannot keep the ball.

A88 has a foul for going OOB during the kick, as he left the field of play on his own accord.  This will be 5 yards from the subsequent spot. (Foul spot is where he came back in, at the B-45.) A88 also commits a foul for illegal batting (by batting the ball forward at the B-40.) This will be a 10-yard foul. The block by A88 against B77 above the waist from the front is legal, as the ball is loose on the ground and is a live ball.

The clock should not have started until a B player touched the ball.  Clock should be reset to 5:56.

Final result is B 1/10 at the 50. GC 6:00, snap, PC 40. Both fouls arrive at the same yardline, so either one may be declined.  The illegal touching is ignored as the result of the fouls are more advantageous to B.

[JasonTX]

It is so quiet around here. Here. Try this:

K/O, A-35, 6:00 (1), A=7, B=0.
A99 legally kicks the ball short (“pooch” style). While the ball is in flight, A88 runs around B77 at the 50, and, without contact by any B player, runs into the restricted area along Team A’s sideline. The ball has landed at the B-45 near the sideline when A88 returns to the field of play at the B-45, where he bats the ball at the B-40, and the ball travels to the B-45, where A88 blocks B77 above the waist from the front, preventing B77 from recovering the ball. A66 recovers the ball while ‘grounded’ at the B-45. The game clocks reads 5:56.

Ruling:
(Provide complete rationale for all events in the down.)

Team A has two fouls here.  Going out of bounds and returning and illegal batting.  Batting the ball, although it's a foul, the mere touching of the ball is legal since the ball has gone 10 yards,  so the game clock should start.  The recovery by team A is also legal.  Now we need to deal with the fouls.  The basic spot on kick plays is the previous spot.  There is no "tack on" option here because there is no spot where "team B will next put the ball in play."  The penalty for going out of bounds and returning foul will be declined.  The illegal batting will be accepted from the previous spot.  Team A will free kick from the A-25.

[ElvisLives]

Let's see how I did...

Result of the play is the kick being recovered by A66 at the B-45.  However, since B had not touched the ball prior, this is the second illegal touching violation (the first was the illegal bat at the B-45).  So, regardless of the outcome of the fouls, we know that A cannot keep the ball.

A88 has a foul for going OOB during the kick, as he left the field of play on his own accord.  This will be 5 yards from the subsequent spot. (Foul spot is where he came back in, at the B-45.) A88 also commits a foul for illegal batting (by batting the ball forward at the B-40.) This will be a 10-yard foul. The block by A88 against B77 above the waist from the front is legal, as the ball is loose on the ground and is a live ball.

The clock should not have started until a B player touched the ball.  Clock should be reset to 5:56.

Final result is B 1/10 at the 50. GC 6:00, snap, PC 40. Both fouls arrive at the same yardline, so either one may be declined.  The illegal touching is ignored as the result of the fouls are more advantageous to B.

Bobby,
Free kick, not a scrimmage kick (as it relates to legal/illegal touching). And check the spot of the bat, versus the spot to where the ball traveled after being batted. And, there is no foul for 'going' out of bounds, but there could be a foul for an Illegal Return inbounds. And verify the enforcement for such a foul. Is the spot where he crossed the sideline (out or in) of any relevance? And, why would we 'reset' the game clock to 5:56? It is already at 5:56. Does it need to be reset, at all?

EDIT:
Oh, and I just saw that you would have set the play clock to 40. The completion of the penalty (whether any, or all, are accepted or declined) causes the play clock to be set to 25, and starts on the Referee's signal.

[ElvisLives]

Team A has two fouls here.  Going out of bounds and returning and illegal batting.  Batting the ball, although it's a foul, the mere touching of the ball is legal since the ball has gone 10 yards,  so the game clock should start.  The recovery by team A is also legal.  Now we need to deal with the fouls.  The basic spot on kick plays is the previous spot.  There is no "tack on" option here because there is no spot where "team B will next put the ball in play."  The penalty for going out of bounds and returning foul will be declined.  The illegal batting will be accepted from the previous spot.  Team A will free kick from the A-25.

Like Bobby, check the spot of the bat, versus the spot where it traveled.

[JasonTX]

Like Bobby, check the spot of the bat, versus the spot where it traveled.

Geeze  , he batted the dang thing backwards.  Ok, waive off the flag for illegal batting.  Still start the clock at that point.  The ball still belongs to team A, but now we have the foul for going out of bounds and returning.  We'll take that back to the previous spot.  Team A free kick from the A-30. 

[ElvisLives]

Geeze  , he batted the dang thing backwards.  Ok, waive off the flag for illegal batting.  Still start the clock at that point.  The ball still belongs to team A, but now we have the foul for going out of bounds and returning.  We'll take that back to the previous spot.  Team A free kick from the A-30.

We have a winner!    Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!

But, I still want to make the point that there isn't a foul for going OB; just a foul for returning inbounds, after having been OB voluntarily. And, since the foul is a previous spot enforcement, the spot where he crosses the sideline is irrelevant.

[ElvisLives]

OK, for the full rationale:

A, Kickoff, A-30, 5:56 (1), free kick timing (25), A=7, B=0.
A88 commits a foul for an Illegal Return when he returns inbounds, after having been out of bounds voluntarily. A88’s backward batting of the ball is legal, as well as being a legal touch of the ball (being beyond B’s restraining line), causing the game clock to be started. A88’s block on B77 is legal (having illegally returned from out of bounds does not restrict A88’s ability to play the ball or interact with opponents in otherwise legal manners). A66’s recovery of the ball is legal; thus, Team A is in legal possession of the ball when the ball becomes dead. The 5-yard penalty for the Illegal Return foul by A88 can only be enforced at the previous spot, and repeat the kickoff. The game clock was correctly started when batted by A88, since that was a legal touch of the ball, so the game clock correctly remains at 5:56.
The completion of the penalty governs the play clock for the succeeding down, which will be 25 seconds, and will start on the referee's signal. The game clock will start according to free kick timing rules.

A lot of things to process in some 8 seconds or so.

[Covid 22]

Since there is no violation for going OOB.  Where does the covering official drop his hat?  OOB spot or IB spot?   

[Legacy Zebra]

Hat where he goes out, flag where he comes back in. Side note: the hat mechanic for an oob player is the emptiest mechanic we have. But that’s for another thread.

[ElvisLives]

Hat where he goes out, flag where he comes back in. Side note: the hat mechanic for an oob player is the emptiest mechanic we have. But that’s for another thread.

To be more accurate, the hat goes down WHEN he goes out, or fails to return immediately after being blocked out, and the flag goes down WHEN such a player returns inbounds. The spots where he crosses the sideline for those events are totally irrelevant, since there is no enforcement related to those spots. So, throwing a hat or flag to those semi-precise spots is not necessary. Not wrong. Just not necessary. The hat goes down to tell "everyone on the planet" - but most importantly, our coordinator - that we saw a Team A player out of bounds - nothing more than that. Regardless of whether he is blocked out or runs out untouched, we get a hat down. If he comes back inbounds legally, we do nothing more, except make a note of it on our game card at the end of the down. If he was OB voluntarily, then we get a flag down when he returns inbounds, stop the clock at the end of the down, report the foul to our R, help with enforcement as necessary, and record it on our game card.
The hat, in particular, very rarely gets seen being thrown. It takes a team video to get those, which is what the coordinators see.

[dammitbobby]

To go off on a (minor) tangential soapbox, I'd like to see this rule modified to where he clearly and obviously goes OOB, not blade of grass OOB.  There's no advantage gained if he steps 1/2" on the white, not one single player on the field will notice it, or have it impact them.  If he runs out, and stays out, then yes there's an advantage there. 

JMO.

[dammitbobby]

Bobby,
Free kick, not a scrimmage kick (as it relates to legal/illegal touching). And check the spot of the bat, versus the spot to where the ball traveled after being batted. And, there is no foul for 'going' out of bounds, but there could be a foul for an Illegal Return inbounds. And verify the enforcement for such a foul. Is the spot where he crossed the sideline (out or in) of any relevance? And, why would we 'reset' the game clock to 5:56? It is already at 5:56. Does it need to be reset, at all?

EDIT:
Oh, and I just saw that you would have set the play clock to 40. The completion of the penalty (whether any, or all, are accepted or declined) causes the play clock to be set to 25, and starts on the Referee's signal.

Yeah I even told myself not a scrimmage kick, and then I went and answered as if it were (except the clock part).  I was thinking of a scenario where B just fell on the ball and clock started. For going OOB I could have been clearer, I knew it was only a foul when he came back in.  As for play clock, I was just thinking 40 after a free kick.  Gotta pay more attention.

[Legacy Zebra]

Regardless of whether he is blocked out or runs out untouched, we get a hat down.

This is why it’s an empty mechanic. It signifies nothing of relevance. Him simply being out of bounds means nothing by itself. If we only dropped a hat when he went out on his own, then it would mean something because it would show everybody why we later had a flag. Or if we only dropped a hat when he was forced out, it would show why we didn’t have a flag. But dropping a hat in both cases removes any meaning or significance.

Let me give an analogy to illustrate.

If they came out tomorrow and told officials to drop their hat any time an ineligible player was more than 3 yards beyond the neutral zone prior to a pass being thrown, you would say it’s meaningless. Do we need to show “everyone on the planet” that we saw the ineligible player go downfield? No because he hasn’t fouled yet. Maybe it’s a run play. Maybe it’s a screen play. Maybe the QB gets sacked before he can throw the ball. Either way, him being downfield is of no consequence. And if there is a pass that crosses the neutral zone, we’re gonna flag it anyway, so the hat doesn’t really mean anything again.


Or take intentional grounding. Does the R need to throw his hat down anytime he has a passer who might have illegally grounded the ball? By the logic we use with out of bounds players he should. If he gets more info and there’s no foul, he can just pick it up and move on, right? And if there is a foul, he can drop a flag. But we don’t do that because it doesn’t help anything and would be an empty mechanic.


It’s the same way with out of bounds players. If it’s a foul, we’re going to flag it anyway. If it’s not a foul, why do we need to mark it? Name any other time we mark something that is not a foul, violation, or possible enforcement spot.

[ElvisLives]

This is why it’s an empty mechanic. It signifies nothing of relevance. Him simply being out of bounds means nothing by itself. If we only dropped a hat when he went out on his own, then it would mean something because it would show everybody why we later had a flag. Or if we only dropped a hat when he was forced out, it would show why we didn’t have a flag. But dropping a hat in both cases removes any meaning or significance.

Let me give an analogy to illustrate.

If they came out tomorrow and told officials to drop their hat any time an ineligible player was more than 3 yards beyond the neutral zone prior to a pass being thrown, you would say it’s meaningless. Do we need to show “everyone on the planet” that we saw the ineligible player go downfield? No because he hasn’t fouled yet. Maybe it’s a run play. Maybe it’s a screen play. Maybe the QB gets sacked before he can throw the ball. Either way, him being downfield is of no consequence. And if there is a pass that crosses the neutral zone, we’re gonna flag it anyway, so the hat doesn’t really mean anything again.


Or take intentional grounding. Does the R need to throw his hat down anytime he has a passer who might have illegally grounded the ball? By the logic we use with out of bounds players he should. If he gets more info and there’s no foul, he can just pick it up and move on, right? And if there is a foul, he can drop a flag. But we don’t do that because it doesn’t help anything and would be an empty mechanic.


It’s the same way with out of bounds players. If it’s a foul, we’re going to flag it anyway. If it’s not a foul, why do we need to mark it? Name any other time we mark something that is not a foul, violation, or possible enforcement spot.

I have no argument or strong disagreement with your view on dropping the hat.
I was being a bit facetious when I said "everybody on the planet." When we first started doing this, and failed to get the hat down, we would get dinged by our coordinator, mostly for not knowing if the player went out of bounds or not, regardless of how he got out there. So, we got a bit anal about getting it down, no matter why. In this day and time, with enough folks paying attention to this as is done today, the coordinators COULD, in my opinion, accept that a "no hat" means, by default, that we have ruled, in our minds, the player to have been blocked out. A "hat" would mean that we see the guy OB voluntarily. But, they couldn't make that 'assumption' in the earliest days.
But, yeah, a hat for all occasions is a bit of overkill.

[Covid 22]

So what if he was forced OOB at the 50 but did not return to the field until he reached the 35?   Wouldn't having the hat down on the 50 help show that he did not return immediately?   

[ElvisLives]

So what if he was forced OOB at the 50 but did not return to the field until he reached the 35?   Wouldn't having the hat down on the 50 help show that he did not return immediately?

Yes. As soon as you deem him to be out bounds voluntarily, the hat would go down. But, with current direction, the hat is already down.