New Defensive Holding Rule

[Zap]

4/15 A-40. A3's punt is touched first beyond the neutral zone by A23 at the B-20. B21 then picks up the kick at the B-15 and advances it to the B-20 where he fumbles. A8 recovers the fumble and carries it across Team B's goal line. During the kick, B33 holds A17 at the A-40.

Would this foul carry the auto first down when enforced?

I think by rule yes, but what if it was a block in the back? It would not be an auto first down. I just think there is a flaw with the new auto first down rule in this instance, when it is during the kick and we have the circumstances that played out in this play making the enforcement at the previous spot. Before the kick I understand.

Thoughts? And yes, I know I am over thinking it.

[Kalle]

I think only Shaw can answer this. I would think that the auto 1st down does not apply during scrimmage kicks, but considering that there is an A.R. to guide us on a DL player holding for a pull-and-shoot, I would say that the rule should be applied to all defensive holds, be they against an eligible receiver during a potential pass play or otherwise.

[Edited to indicate that there is a new A.R. for pull-and-shoot]

[KingTut]

FI-35 AR 6-3-11 III

Team A snaps at the 50-yard line and punts. The kick is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 muffs the ball at the B-2 and A43 recovers it at the B-6. While the ball is loose B77 holds A21 at the B-10.
RULING: Team A may cancel the illegal touching privilege by accepting the holding penalty, which is enforced at the previous spot with the down replayed. Postscrimmage kick rules do not apply to B77’s foul since Team B will not next put the ball in play (Rule 10-2-3)

The AR doesn't have down and distance but it said "replayed" instead of "automatic 1st"

[blindtxzebra]

FI-35 AR 6-3-11 III

Team A snaps at the 50-yard line and punts. The kick is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 muffs the ball at the B-2 and A43 recovers it at the B-6. While the ball is loose B77 holds A21 at the B-10.
RULING: Team A may cancel the illegal touching privilege by accepting the holding penalty, which is enforced at the previous spot with the down replayed. Postscrimmage kick rules do not apply to B77’s foul since Team B will not next put the ball in play (Rule 10-2-3)

The AR doesn't have down and distance but it said "replayed" instead of "automatic 1st"

I have actually emailed Shaw to ask him if this was an oversight for this particular AR because AR 10-2-3-VII is similar and has been modified to include an automatic 1st down. I did this a week ago but have not heard back from.

[Zap]

So off topic, but kinda the same.

With the new UNS enforcement change trying get the enforcement like that of PFs (other than the non-player UNSs) Do you think it should have been added to the list of fouls to enforce from the previous spot behind the LOS by Team A?

I don't have a problem with it being a spot foul but it seems like they tried to get them to be just like PFs and may have missed this? Maybe?

[ElvisLives]

So off topic, but kinda the same.

With the new UNS enforcement change trying get the enforcement like that of PFs (other than the non-player UNSs) Do you think it should have been added to the list of fouls to enforce from the previous spot behind the LOS by Team A?

I don't have a problem with it being a spot foul but it seems like they tried to get them to be just like PFs and may have missed this? Maybe?

Well, it IS for kick plays, but not for scrimmage plays without a kick. Yeah, on a scrimmage down with a UNS by A behind the NZ, during a running play (with no legal kick play), that is pure 3 & 1, with the previous spot as the Basic Spot, making the spot of the foul the actual enforcement spot. If the Team A UNS foul occurs behind the NZ during a legal forward pass play or a legal kick play, that is previous spot enforcement, OR enforcement at the spot where the dead ball belongs to B. Team A gets a little break under those circumstances. So unusual-to-rare as to not be much of an issue. But, if Shaw is made fully aware, he might re-visit that for 2023. 

[ilyazhito]

4/15 A-40. A3's punt is touched first beyond the neutral zone by A23 at the B-20. B21 then picks up the kick at the B-15 and advances it to the B-20 where he fumbles. A8 recovers the fumble and carries it across Team B's goal line. During the kick, B33 holds A17 at the A-40.

Would this foul carry the auto first down when enforced?

I think by rule yes, but what if it was a block in the back? It would not be an auto first down. I just think there is a flaw with the new auto first down rule in this instance, when it is during the kick and we have the circumstances that played out in this play making the enforcement at the previous spot. Before the kick I understand.

Thoughts? And yes, I know I am over thinking it.

Isn't this a moot point? Based on the description, fouls during the kick carry previous spot enforcement. Because B is not next to put the ball in play, PSK enforcement  cannot apply. This means that the down will be replayed from the 50 yard line, A 4/5 after the holding penalty is applied.

[JasonTX]

Isn't this a moot point? Based on the description, fouls during the kick carry previous spot enforcement. Because B is not next to put the ball in play, PSK enforcement  cannot apply. This means that the down will be replayed from the 50 yard line, A 4/5 after the holding penalty is applied.

Defensive holding is now an automatic first down.

[ElvisLives]

Minor, but significant, amendment to Jason's comment. ALL defensive holding fouls are now an automatic first down. Not just those against an eligible receiver, blah, blah, blah. ALL DH fouls (if not in conflict with other rules).

[Zap]

Minor, but significant, amendment to Jason's comment. ALL defensive holding fouls are now an automatic first down. Not just those against an eligible receiver, blah, blah, blah. ALL DH fouls (if not in conflict with other rules).

Back to my point, if you change out 'defensive holding' with a 'block in the back' during the kick. No auto first. I don't think the purpose behind this rule was to award Team A with a first down when they were punting away. DH with auto first was meant to generate the offense not bail out a team that was forced to punt just because of a quirk in the rules.

[copedaddy]

In AR 10.2.3.7 the DH foul occurs before the kick. Once the kick crosses the NZ how can A be awarded an auto first down? Shouldn't it be just like any other foul B committed during or after the kick?

[Zap]

In AR 10.2.3.7 the DH foul occurs before the kick. Once the kick crosses the NZ how can A be awarded an auto first down? Shouldn't it be just like any other foul B committed during or after the kick?

(My feelings) Yes. That is not what the new enforcement says. However, there is an AR that says differently. Hence why Mr. Shaw should address this.

[copedaddy]

I think (dangerous) that 10.2.3 covers this. And the section has not been changed with the new DH foul. Oversight maybe, but A's series is treated as over by this rule and B fouls use the 3-1. This does need to be cleaned up in a hurry, this has some real potential problems.

[JasonTX]

I think (dangerous) that 10.2.3 covers this. And the section has not been changed with the new DH foul. Oversight maybe, but A's series is treated as over by this rule and B fouls use the 3-1. This does need to be cleaned up in a hurry, this has some real potential problems.

I don't see the problem.  If the foul qualifies for Postscrimmage Kick enforcement, then we use that.  If PSK is not in effect, then we know the basic spot is then the previous spot.  If we are using the previous spot, a defensive hold will yield an automatic first down.  It's no different than if the foul was for a Facemask.  If PSK is in effect, we use that.  If it's the previous spot, then the rule tells us that the penalty for a facemask will be an automatic first down.

[ilyazhito]

A facemask is a different type of foul. It is a personal foul with a 15-yard penalty, not a 10-yard penalty. Defensive holding has a similar consequence to illegal batting, and is similar in nature that it is a procedural foul, not a safety foul.

Copedaddy describes a contradiction between the existing ARs and the new rule on an automatic first down for defensive holding. That is what needs to be resolved. Is it A 1/10 from the 50, or A 4/5 from the 50, as it would have been prior to the rule change?

[JasonTX]

The existing AR states that the holding foul didn't qualify for postscrimmage kick enforcement so the previous spot is the enforcement spot and includes an automatic first down.

[Zap]

The existing AR states that the holding foul didn't qualify for postscrimmage kick enforcement so the previous spot is the enforcement spot and includes an automatic first down.

FI-35 AR 6-3-11 III

Team A snaps at the 50-yard line and punts. The kick is untouched beyond the neutral zone when A88 reaches across Team B’s goal line and bats the ball back into the field of play. B22 muffs the ball at the B-2 and A43 recovers it at the B-6. While the ball is loose B77 holds A21 at the B-10.
RULING: Team A may cancel the illegal touching privilege by accepting the holding penalty, which is enforced at the previous spot with the down replayed. Postscrimmage kick rules do not apply to B77’s foul since Team B will not next put the ball in play (Rule 10-2-3)

[JasonTX]

I see the oversight,  but the new AR, the yardage was not enough for a first down, but the AR says the penalty results on an automatic first down.  When that happens, me personally,  I'm going with the newest AR.

[Zap]

The AR above is copied and pasted out of the 2022 Rule Book.

[JasonTX]

The AR above is copied and pasted out of the 2022 Rule Book.

Yes, but it wasn't edited.  AR 10-2-3 VII was edited (copied below).  Last year that AR had the play situation as being 4th and 7 and stated the yardage resulted in a first down.  For 2022, that AR was edited and was changed to 4th and 12 and states that the penalty includes an automatic first down.

Team A snaps the ball at the A-35 on fourth and 12. Just after the
snap lineman B77 grabs guard A66 and pulls him to one side, allowing
linebacker B43 to shoot the gap to try to block the kick. B44 catches
the kick at the B-25 and returns to the B-40 where he is tackled.
RULING: B77’s holding foul is not covered by postscrimmage kick
enforcement since it is before the kick. The 10-yard penalty is enforced
at the previous spot. The penalty yardage alone does not give Team A
a first down, but defensive holding includes an automatic first down.
Therefore, Team A first and 10 at the A-45.

[Zap]

I get 100% but in the AR I posted the hold was during the kick, not before the kick, which in most situations would be PSK except for the fact it will get enforced at the previous spot due to an illegal touch. Like I said, if this happens to me I'm going with the auto first down in the AR 6-3-11 III AR as I think it just might be an oversite with the new enforcement being added. I just don't like it because it isn't completely clear.

[ElvisLives]

I get 100% but in the AR I posted the hold was during the kick, not before the kick, which in most situations would be PSK except for the fact it will get enforced at the previous spot due to an illegal touch. Like I said, if this happens to me I'm going with the auto first down in the AR 6-3-11 III AR as I think it just might be an oversite with the new enforcement being added. I just don't like it because it isn't completely clear.

Completely concur. If we penalize at the previous spot, by rule, everything in the penalty statement for holding, changed for 2022, applies. First down. I'll let a power above tell me I'm wrong.
Thankfully, pretty rare circumstances.

[JasonTX]

Here is another AR that also wasn't edited for 2022.

AR 4-1-2-I:

Team A punts on fourth and 15 at the A-30. B44 is in position to receive
the kick. In attempting to catch the ball, B44 muffs it at the B-35. The
back judge blows his whistle when it appears that B44 is catching the ball,
but it rolls along the ground after B44 muffs it. A88 chases the ball, and in
the immediate continuing football action he recovers it while grounded at
the B-30. B22 is flagged for holding during the kick.

RULING: For games without Instant Replay: Inadvertent whistle. Rule 4-1-2-b-3 applies. The
ball is returned to the previous spot and the 10-yard holding penalty is
enforced. Team A retains possession and will have fourth and 5 at the A-40.

For games with Instant Replay. Inadvertent whistle. Rule 12-3-3-l applies.
Team A declines the penalty and will have the ball at the B-30, first and 10.

[blindtxzebra]

And another not edited:
7-3-4-II

Eligible A88 voluntarily goes out of bounds during a down in which a legal forward pass is thrown. He returns to the field of play inbounds but does not touch the ball and is held by an opponent before the ball is touched by any player. RULING: Not pass interference—A88 is not eligible to catch a legal forward pass. Penalty—Ten yards from the previous spot. Repeat the down.

[ElvisLives]

Noted. Thank you!