Safety or Touchdown?

[lonnieritch1981]

Okay, I think I have a pretty good idea of why Approved Ruling 8-5-1 XI on FI-59 (2022 Rule Book) is a Safety, but I'd like the group's clarification of why it's a Safety and not a TD.  Is it solely because it's a 4th down fumble with a new impetus that's recovered by A in the EZ?  In other words, since only A44 (the fumbler) can recover this ball in the EZ for a TD, since A88 recovered it, this means the results of the play can only be a Safety?  I've never seen this happen, but apparently it has, or it wouldn't be int eh Rule Book.  I'd like a definitive way of explaining this a coach should, God forbid, it ever happened in a game I was officiating.  Help, please.

[dammitbobby]

I believe you are correct – because of the 4th down fumble rule, the ball is dead immediately when recovered by any A player other than the fumbler (A44.)  B54’s bat is legal because it was not forward in the field of play and batting the ball does not change its status – it’s still a fumble, recovered by A in the end zone.  The bat is essentially irrelevant.  If this had been recovered in the field of play, say at the B-3, that is where Team B would gain a new series.  B obviously can’t get a new series in the EZ, so it has to be a safety.

I would not want to have to explain this to a coach. But, rules are are rules.

[lonnieritch1981]

Explaining this to a coach, that is the conundrum here.   No coach is going to agree, 4th down fumble rule notwithstanding, that it's a Safety when his team recovers the ball in the opponent's EZ.  However, you are correct, the rules are the rules.  Good luck to any official that has this misfortune come his way!!!

[lonnieritch1981]

Oh, and one more thing: how many of us as officials would get this right?  I have to confess, before I saw this AR I would've ruled this a TD, probably despite it being 4th down.

[dammitbobby]

I got the explanation wrong.

This is a safety awarded to Team A, not Team B - you're going to have both coaches mad on this one.  Team A wants a TD, and B wants the ball, but will have to kick to Team A.  (B's coach will be madder, but neither will be entirely happy)

The bat is very much relevant as it adds new impetus to the ball, but it does not change the status of the ball - it's still a fumble, recovered by A, in advance of the spot of the fumble.  But, B is now responsible for the ball being in the EZ they are defending. It's no different than any other scrimmage play where a runner was tackled behind their own end line - they are responsible for the ball being there.

[lonnieritch1981]

As I understand it, you are perfectly correct.  No one's (the coach on either team) going to be happy and you're going to look like the goat!!!

[Legacy Zebra]

Don’t try to have a full rules clinic when you’re explaining a play to a coach. Put it in simple terms and keep it brief. If a coach isn’t going to like a ruling, use the phrase “by rule” when applicable so that he’ll know it’s a rule and not a judgement or something we’re deciding. And sometimes you have to sell it to them in a way that makes it seem like they came out ahead.

“Coach B, the ball became dead in your end zone and you batting the ball made you responsible for it being there. By rule that’s a safety.”

“Coach A, since it was 4th down, only the player who fumbled is allowed to recover it, so you can’t have a touchdown. If they had not batted the ball, it would be their ball.  But because they batted the ball into their own end zone, you’re going to get a safety and the ball back.”

[ElvisLives]

Don’t try to have a full rules clinic when you’re explaining a play to a coach. Put it in simple terms and keep it brief. If a coach isn’t going to like a ruling, use the phrase “by rule” when applicable so that he’ll know it’s a rule and not a judgement or something we’re deciding. And sometimes you have to sell it to them in a way that makes it seem like they came out ahead.

“Coach B, the ball became dead in your end zone and you batting the ball made you responsible for it being there. By rule that’s a safety.”

“Coach A, since it was 4th down, only the player who fumbled is allowed to recover it, so you can’t have a touchdown. If they had not batted the ball, it would be their ball.  But because they batted the ball into their own end zone, you’re going to get a safety and the ball back.”

 

[Kalle]

This is actually a really good A.R. and I think the explanation in the A.R. is very clear. Without this A.R. the rules themselves do not specify what we should do in this play situation. You could easily argue (and I seem to remember that we did argue this particular play here before the A.R. came) that the ball belongs to team B at the spot of the fumble.

[dammitbobby]

yes it is - I answered before reading the ruling in the AR, which is how I came up with my (wrong) answer that we should give the safety to B, instead of A.  Then I got to thinking, why would the ball being dead in the EZ as a safety override giving them the ball at the spot of the fumble, per the rule?  And that's when I went back and read it.

I've had a close play to this (4th down fumble rule, ball winds up in EZ), just didn't have the bat.  Took a minute but we got it right.  I usually have a 4th down fumble rule play at least once a season, it seems.  But only one end zone one.

[JDM]

Okay, I think I have a pretty good idea of why Approved Ruling 8-5-1 XI on FI-59 (2022 Rule Book) is a Safety, but I'd like the group's clarification of why it's a Safety and not a TD.  Is it solely because it's a 4th down fumble with a new impetus that's recovered by A in the EZ?  In other words, since only A44 (the fumbler) can recover this ball in the EZ for a TD, since A88 recovered it, this means the results of the play can only be a Safety?  I've never seen this happen, but apparently it has, or it wouldn't be int eh Rule Book.  I'd like a definitive way of explaining this a coach should, God forbid, it ever happened in a game I was officiating.  Help, please.

Here are a couple pertaining to safety vs TB, a Coach will want clarification on:

4th/14 @ A-6. The snap hits blocking back A44's thigh and rolls forward. B55 bats the ball backward from A's 2. The ball hits B66 on A's 3 and rolls into A's end zone. A4 picks up the ball and punts. The punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.

Ruling:
Touchback. A 1/10 A20. The impetus was imparted by B55's legal backward bat. The impetus imparted by B55's bat would have been expended if A4's punt hit in the field of play. It would then be a safety if the punt went out of bounds in A's end zone.

4th/14 @ A-66. The snap hits blocking back A44's thigh and rolls forward. B55 bats the ball backward from A's 2. The ball hits B66 on A's 3 and rolls into A's end zone. A4 picks up the ball and punts. The ball hits on A's 16 and rolls back into and out of A's end zone.

Ruling:
Safety. Team B scores two points. The impetus was imparted by A4's punt. The impetus imparted by B55's bat was expended when A4's punt hit in the field of play. Touchback if A4's punt is blocked and the ball goes out of A's end zone without entering the field of play.

[bossman72]

I personally think Shaw got this interp wrong.

Absent the 4th down fumble rule, the result of the play is a touchdown.
With the 4th down fumble rule, the result of the play is the offense having the ball at the spot of the fumble.  In essence, the runner is down where he fumbled the ball.
We don't use the recovery spot for ANYTHING on 4th down fumble rule.  The ball is immediately returned to the spot of the fumble at the conclusion of the play.

To me, this play should just be regular 4th down fumble rule and we move on.

[bctgp]

Lets change the scenario one way - the fumbled loose ball is batted backward by a team B player before it contacts the ground. What do you have?

I think this will help us understand the impetus rules and why the outcome is what it is in both scenarios.

[Legacy Zebra]

If the ball is still in flight, the batting does not add new impetus. So that means Team A’s fumble is still the impetus when it cross the goal line. In this case Team B will get the ball at the spot of the fumble.

I disagree with bossman on this and think the rules read exactly along the lines of Shaw’s interp. Where a becomes dead is not always the same as where a dead ball belongs to a team. 8-5-1-a says it’s a safety if, “… [the ball] becomes dead by rule, and the defending team is responsible for the ball being there.” It doesn’t matter where the ball would belong to either team. The ball became dead in Team B’s end zone and Team B was responsible for it being there. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t in possession or that the dead ball may or may not belong to them.

And the reason the second situation is not a touchback because the touchback rule reads differently. 8-6-1-a says it’s a touchback if, “ The ball becomes dead out of bounds behind a goal line, except from an
incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind their own goal line and the attacking team is responsible for the ball being there.” Team B is not in possession in their own end zone and the ball didn’t go out out of bounds, so it’s not a touchback.

[bossman72]

If the ball is still in flight, the batting does not add new impetus. So that means Team A’s fumble is still the impetus when it cross the goal line. In this case Team B will get the ball at the spot of the fumble.

I disagree with bossman on this and think the rules read exactly along the lines of Shaw’s interp. Where a becomes dead is not always the same as where a dead ball belongs to a team. 8-5-1-a says it’s a safety if, “… [the ball] becomes dead by rule, and the defending team is responsible for the ball being there.” It doesn’t matter where the ball would belong to either team. The ball became dead in Team B’s end zone and Team B was responsible for it being there. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t in possession or that the dead ball may or may not belong to them.

And the reason the second situation is not a touchback because the touchback rule reads differently. 8-6-1-a says it’s a touchback if, “ The ball becomes dead out of bounds behind a goal line, except from an
incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind their own goal line and the attacking team is responsible for the ball being there.” Team B is not in possession in their own end zone and the ball didn’t go out out of bounds, so it’s not a touchback.

I can see why Shaw ruled it that way, but I disagree the result of the play is a safety. Absent the 4th down fumble rule, the result of this play is a touchdown. Impetus and responsibility has nothing to do with touchdown plays. Given this has the 4th down fumble rule, it's still a "touchdown", but we bring it back to the fumble spot on the 4th down fumble rule.

We never ignore the 4th down fumble rule. It's not optional.

2. On fourth down before a change of team possession, when a Team
A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the
fumbler, the ball is dead. If the catch or recovery is beyond the spot of
the fumble, the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble.[/b] If the catch
or recovery is behind the spot of the fumble, the ball remains at the
spot of the catch or recovery.

So basically, your dead ball spot is the 4th down fumble spot. On other 4th down fumble plays, if we have a penalty, our basic spot is the 4th down fumble spot. It's as if the ball is instantaneously brought back to the spot of the fumble.  We don't award a safety (or touchdown), then bring it back on the 4th down fumble rule, like we're accepting a foul. There's nothing in the 4th down fumble rule that implies it's optional.

I can see Shaw's logic too and I'm ok with the ruling, but I just think you always have to bring the ball back to the 4th down fumble spot when A recovers anywhere beyond, so the ball isn't actually dead in the end zone. Even if it is, the result is a "touchdown", not a safety.

[Legacy Zebra]

That’s the thing though, it IS dead in the end zone. That’s the difference between where a ball becomes dead and where it belongs to somebody. The way 8-5-1 is written, it doesn’t matter where the belongs to anybody. All that matters is where the ball became dead. Think of a fumble forward out of bounds. It is dead where it crosses the side line, but belongs to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble. Now consider that same forward fumble that now goes out of bounds beyond the goal line. We’re not ignoring the rule that says we bring it back to the spot of the fumble. We just have another rule that says that situation is a touchback. This is the same thing. We’re not ignoring the 4th down fumble rule, we just have another rule that says this situation is a safety.

And to your point about penalty enforcement, we don’t use the “4th down fumble spot” for penalty enforcement. We use the end of the run like any other running play on any other down.

[bossman72]

And to your point about penalty enforcement, we don’t use the “4th down fumble spot” for penalty enforcement. We use the end of the run like any other running play on any other down.

I was referring more to dead ball fouls / succeeding spot.

[KWH]

Big Difference!

NFHS RULING –
•   Illegal Bat by B54 at the B3 yard line per 9-7-2
•   Touchdown by A88 per 8-2-1b
•   10-yard penalty may be enforced on either the try or the subsequent kickoff per 8-2-2

While I realize this is the NCAA sight, it has become commonplace for NCAA rulings to be added to most every NFHS discussion on RefStripes