Clock with Measurement

[JasonTX]

3rd and 1 at the B-30 with 45 seconds remaining in the game with team A leading by 7 points.  Team A runs a play and is very close to a first down.  Also, during the down, a team B player is down with an injury.  There will be a measurement to determine if there is a first down or not. Neither team has any timeouts remaining. 

In
a)  The measurement results in a first down. 
b)  The measurement results in 4th down.

What is the clock status for each result?

[Kalle]

I could swear that there is an A.R. for this but maybe I'm conflating a Rom Gilbert play situation. IMO the answer to both a) and b) is no ZAP10 option, 25s play clock, game clock on the ready - I assume that the run ends inbounds. The clock is stopped for a measurement and the injury, so there is no advantage timewise gained by the injury.

[ilyazhito]

There is no 10-second subtraction in either case. Because the measurement and injury both stopped the clock, there is no reason for a 10-second subtraction. There would be a 25-second play clock on the ready for play.

[JasonTX]

I could swear that there is an A.R. for this but maybe I'm conflating a Rom Gilbert play situation. IMO the answer to both a) and b) is no ZAP10 option, 25s play clock, game clock on the ready - I assume that the run ends inbounds. The clock is stopped for a measurement and the injury, so there is no advantage timewise gained by the injury.

I swear the same.  I thought either a bulletin or an AR.  The result of the measurement mattered.  Unless someone can point that to me I'm going with what you have.  I nearly had this situation in my game.  I added the part about being under 1 minute but everything else was the same.  Measurement with an injury to team B.

[ElvisLives]

That is my recollection, as well. Not an AR, but maybe a bulletin example. I’ll look at old bulletins and see if I can find something.

[DJW201]

From Rom Gilbert, 2015 #12:

A 3/6 B40. A24 is close to a first down on B's 34. After the ball is dead, A76 blocks late. There are 9 seconds left on the clock in the first half. A measurement shows the ball (a) one inch short of a first down; or (b) once inch beyond the line to gain.

A 4/15 B49; Ready. (a) Team B may accept the ZAP 10 since the clock was running when the foul occurred. If they accept the ZAP 10, then the half is over and the penalty carries over to the second half. (b) No ZAP 10.

Not official CFO, but what I could find on this.

[Punter]

Doesn't the defensive injury require a 40 second play clock?   I agree with no Zap 10.

[Kalle]

Doesn't the defensive injury require a 40 second play clock?   I agree with no Zap 10.

You are absolutely correct and I was horribly wrong.

[JasonTX]

Doesn't the defensive injury require a 40 second play clock?   I agree with no Zap 10.

We have two rules in conflict with each other on this. 

3-2-4-c-4 tells us 40 second play clock for the defensive injury.

3-2-4-c-5 tells us 25 second play clock due to the measurement.

Which one trumps the other?

[Punter]

I can’t find rules support, but I recall that injury and helmet off by the defense requires the next play clock to be set to 40 in all cases.  Maybe, someone else can dig up support.

[dammitbobby]

I think the helmet aspect is irrelevant if it's an injury to B.

3-3-5-e  Following a timeout for an injured player of the defensive team, the play clock shall be set at 40 seconds.

[Kalle]

I can’t find rules support, but I recall that injury and helmet off by the defense requires the next play clock to be set to 40 in all cases.  Maybe, someone else can dig up support.

See A.R. 3-3-5-VII c, which says that even after a media timeout the play clock will be set to 40 if a team B injury preceded the timeout, which is really weird and pointless, IMO, but that's how it is.

[peterparsons]

See A.R. 3-3-5-VII c, which says that even after a media timeout the play clock will be set to 40 if a team B injury preceded the timeout, which is really weird and pointless, IMO, but that's how it is.

After a media timeout, the game clock and play clock are set as if the media timeout had never happened.

[peterparsons]

I can’t find rules support, but I recall that injury and helmet off by the defense requires the next play clock to be set to 40 in all cases.  Maybe, someone else can dig up support.

Not always. 3-3-9-b (helmet off) says this happens if the helmet off is the only reason the clock was stopped (other than an injury to a player of the same team). If there was one or more other reasons the game clock was stopped e.g. a flag on the play, then the play clock is set to whatever that other reason or reasons cause it to be set to.

Interestingly, the way that 3-3-9-b is worded has an implication that the same should be the case for injuries (as the wording suggests that the two situations - helmet off and injury - should be treated similarly), but the wording relating to defensive injuries doesn't make reference to other reasons the clock was stopped.

Flag on the play plus B helmet comes off - 25s play clock.
Flag on the play plus B injury - the rules as written are unclear. 3-2-4-c-1 says 25, 3-3-5-e says 40.

[Punter]

You are correct. 

[Kalle]

After a media timeout, the game clock and play clock are set as if the media timeout had never happened.

Umm, so what is the purpose of rule 3-2-4-c-3?

[peterparsons]

Umm, so what is the purpose of rule 3-2-4-c-3?

That I have no idea about, but would we want to create a potential clock advantage for Team B if TV decides to go to a timeout while an injured Team B player is being attended to by changing what would have been (with no media timeout) a 40s play clock back to a 25s one (which goes directly against the reason why the 40s play clock for defense was introduced in the first place)?

[JDM]

From Rom Gilbert, 2015 #12:

A 3/6 B40. A24 is close to a first down on B's 34. After the ball is dead, A76 blocks late. There are 9 seconds left on the clock in the first half. A measurement shows the ball (a) one inch short of a first down; or (b) once inch beyond the line to gain.

A 4/15 B49; Ready. (a) Team B may accept the ZAP 10 since the clock was running when the foul occurred. If they accept the ZAP 10, then the half is over and the penalty carries over to the second half. (b) No ZAP 10.

Not official CFO, but what I could find on this.

I typically put my money on Gilbert.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Umm, so what is the purpose of rule 3-2-4-c-3?

I can’t answer your question but I can’t think of any time we would stop the game clock to take a media timeout. The clock is already stopped for something else. So maybe my answer is that rule has no purpose.