Scrimmage Kick Exceptions

[JasonTX]

With 7 seconds left in the half, Team A is lined up for an apparent field goal.  The snapper has his hand on the ball.  There are 4 players numbered 50 thru 79 on the LOS.  Number 55 is lined up to the left side of the formation in the backfield.  On the right-hand side are numbers 44 and 42.  42 is the end.  Number 55 shifts forward onto the line and 42 shifts backward into the backfield uncovering 44.  All players are set for 1 second and the ball is snapped.  It's a fake and team A throws an incomplete pass.   Ruling?

[dammitbobby]

Foul for illegal formation. 7-1-5-a/b.

(a)Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule when the snapper is established.  Since the snapper has established himself by putting his hands on the ball, 44 is granted the numbering exception.  However:

(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A commits a foul for an illegal formation.  42 is now on the end of the line, and is an illegal formation.

[Legacy Zebra]

Typed out a whole thing just Bobby to beat me to it. If they wanted to do this legally, they needed to make the shift prior to the snapper addressing the ball.

[dammitbobby]

I'll add, this would likely take me longer to process (correctly) than the time I would have available to do so.  Gonna work on this section of the rule book some more.

[JasonTX]

Typed out a whole thing just Bobby to beat me to it. If they wanted to do this legally, they needed to make the shift prior to the snapper addressing the ball.

And in my game, that's what they did.  They did it legally.  I just wanted to change it up a bit to post here.  It was interesting because after the shift, they then had 5 players 50-79 on the line.  Some might argue that since they had the required numbers at the snap, we wouldn't have anything.  If you have 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then does 7-1-5-a even come into play?  I was on alert for this because previously the other team lined up in a "swinging gate" formation and only had 4 players 50-79 and I flagged them.

[ElvisLives]

If I need to provide the actual e-mail, I can. Steve Shaw responded to that exact question and replied, yes, if Team A has 5 linemen numbered 50-79, they can shift all they want, because the rule is all about numbering EXCEPTIONS, and, if they have 5 linemen 50-79, there are no EXCEPTIONS, so they can assume whatever formation they want, as long as they maintain the 5 linemen numbered 50-79.

[JasonTX]

If I need to provide the actual e-mail, I can. Steve Shaw responded to that exact question and replied, yes, if Team A has 5 linemen numbered 50-79, they can shift all they want, because the rule is all about numbering EXCEPTIONS, and, if they have 5 linemen 50-79, there are no EXCEPTIONS, so they can assume whatever formation they want, as long as they maintain the 5 linemen numbered 50-79.

Thank you.  That's what I was going with. 

[TxBJ]

Thank you.  That's what I was going with.

So are you saying that in Jason's original post, this is legal?  44 became a numbering exception when the snapper put his hand on the ball, then was uncovered when 42 moved into the backfield.  But since 55 shifted forward, now putting five players numbered 50-79 on the line, we no longer consider him a numbering exception?  Just want to make sure I'm reading this right.

[dammitbobby]

As I understand it, no this is not legal, because the center 'locked the line' by putting hands on the ball.  He's still an exception because of that, regardless of how many are on the line at the snap.

[JasonTX]

As I understand it, no this is not legal, because the center 'locked the line' by putting hands on the ball.  He's still an exception because of that, regardless of how many are on the line at the snap.

The rules require 5 players 50-79 on the line except when a team is in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap.  If they have fewer than 4 players 50-79 at the snap, those players get locked it when the snapper touches the ball.  Since they meet the requirement of 5 players 50-79 at the snap, no player is an exception.

[dammitbobby]

So hang on.  You're saying that the numbering exception goes away, once 55 shifted forward, even though at that time, 44 had been an exception?  That both scenarios are NOT fouls? 

I thought that once the snapper touched the ball, at which time 44 became a numbering exception, that was a 'permanent' thing until the snap, and couldn't be taken off of him, since the snapper had already been established.  Allowing that to change, once the snapper has been established, isn't that the same as allowing linemen to shift/move if the center takes his hands completely off the ball? 

[JasonTX]

So hang on.  You're saying that the numbering exception goes away, once 55 shifted forward, even though at that time, 44 had been an exception?  That both scenarios are NOT fouls? 

I thought that once the snapper touched the ball, at which time 44 became a numbering exception, that was a 'permanent' thing until the snap, and couldn't be taken off of him, since the snapper had already been established.  Allowing that to change, once the snapper has been established, isn't that the same as allowing linemen to shift/move if the center takes his hands completely off the ball?

If you have 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then how are they using the numbering exception that allows them to have fewer? 7-1-4-a-5 tells us that they may have fewer at the snap and if they do then we make sure the conditions of a, b, c have been complied with.  If they don't have fewer than 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then they are following the rule without the need for the exception.

[TxBJ]

This doesn’t make sense to me since they already declared an exception when the snapper put his hand on the ball. Rule book says he cannot be left on the end of the line. It doesn’t say anything about “revoking” the exception later. We seem ti be ignoring the rule.

[JasonTX]

This doesn’t make sense to me since they already declared an exception when the snapper put his hand on the ball. Rule book says he cannot be left on the end of the line. It doesn’t say anything about “revoking” the exception later. We seem ti be ignoring the rule.

Elvis has an email from Shaw on this.  Who is that player an exception for?  The rule states if they are playing with fewer than 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then those exceptions kick in and their restrictions would have started when the snapper touches the ball.  But because they don't have fewer than 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then they aren't utilizing the exception.

[dammitbobby]

If you have 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then how are they using the numbering exception that allows them to have fewer? 7-1-4-a-5 tells us that they may have fewer at the snap and if they do then we make sure the conditions of a, b, c have been complied with.  If they don't have fewer than 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then they are following the rule without the need for the exception.

So what relevance would the rule's statement that the exception is made when the snapper touches the ball, if it can simply be removed at any time by A55 shifting to the line?  Why not just have that the exception is created at the snap, instead of once the snapper puts his hand on the ball? 

The rule doesn't say anything about the established exception going away should the correctly numbered linemen materialize on the line.

[TxBJ]

I believe you about Shaw's email and will officiate it this way.  Just trying to clarify it in my head.  I think Jason's statement below clarified it for me:

The rule states if they are playing with fewer than 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then those exceptions kick in and their restrictions would have started when the snapper touches the ball.

[Covid 22]

You got me confused.   I believe that the key word is "exception."   Five players with 50 - 79 are there at the snap so normal football.  However, #42 was locked in as a lineman and is restricted during a pass play.  He is ineligible by position.   There is no illegal formation only restricted players.

I think.

[Snapper]

If you have 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then how are they using the numbering exception that allows them to have fewer? 7-1-4-a-5 tells us that they may have fewer at the snap and if they do then we make sure the conditions of a, b, c have been complied with.  If they don't have fewer than 5 players 50-79 at the snap, then they are following the rule without the need for the exception.

I had never seen that on the field, nor picked up on that logic before.  Thanks for the discussion.

[JasonTX]

So what relevance would the rule's statement that the exception is made when the snapper touches the ball, if it can simply be removed at any time by A55 shifting to the line?  Why not just have that the exception is created at the snap, instead of once the snapper puts his hand on the ball? 

The rule doesn't say anything about the established exception going away should the correctly numbered linemen materialize on the line.

Answer this.  Do they have fewer than 5 players numbered 50-79 at the snap?

[dammitbobby]

Answer this.  Do they have fewer than 5 players numbered 50-79 at the snap?

They do not.  However, they do have a declared exception that does not have a rule statement erasing it. 

I get what you're saying - I'm just not clear on why the exception, which was declared when the snapper touched the ball - just goes away, without a rule saying that it goes away.  The way the rule book is structured (and as I understand it, through philosophy), is that anything not explicitly proscribed (by a rule), is allowed... which I interpret as since there's nothing explicitly removing the numbering exception that has been declared, it is still in effect, if that makes sense.

I think we're more into the philosophical side of the discussion now, L O L (I hate that emoji).

[JasonTX]

They do not.  However, they do have a declared exception that does not have a rule statement erasing it. 

I get what you're saying - I'm just not clear on why the exception, which was declared when the snapper touched the ball - just goes away, without a rule saying that it goes away.  The way the rule book is structured (and as I understand it, through philosophy), is that anything not explicitly proscribed (by a rule), is allowed... which I interpret as since there's nothing explicitly removing the numbering exception that has been declared, it is still in effect, if that makes sense.

I think we're more into the philosophical side of the discussion now, L O L (I hate that emoji).

If you don't have fewer than 5 players 50-79 then you stop reading any further there in the rule book. 7-1-5- a, b, and c are not applicable.

What do you have it team A lines up on 1st and 10 at the 50 with players lined up from left to right in the formation on the line of scrimmage:
 88        50  55  52  51  60  85  22.    The snapper is 52 and he has addressed the ball.  #22 steps off the line into the backfield and gets set and then they snap the ball.  Any issue with that?

[Kalle]

So what relevance would the rule's statement that the exception is made when the snapper touches the ball, if it can simply be removed at any time by A55 shifting to the line?  Why not just have that the exception is created at the snap, instead of once the snapper puts his hand on the ball? 

The rule addresses the situation where there are shifts and you end up with fewer than five players numbered 50-79 at the snap. Let me give you an example.

Team A lines up with: A80 A81 A82 A50 A51 A52 A83 A84 on the line. After the snapper has touched the ball A84 takes two full steps back and stops. The ball is snapped and both A83 and A84 go downfield on a pass route. This is illegal, as A83 became an exception when the snapper touched the ball even though he is apparently no longer an exception at the snap and you have fewer than five players numbered 50-79.

[dammitbobby]

The rule addresses the situation where there are shifts and you end up with fewer than five players numbered 50-79 at the snap. Let me give you an example.

Team A lines up with: A80 A81 A82 A50 A51 A52 A83 A84 on the line. After the snapper has touched the ball A84 takes two full steps back and stops. The ball is snapped and both A83 and A84 go downfield on a pass route. This is illegal, as A83 became an exception when the snapper touched the ball even though he is apparently no longer an exception at the snap and you have fewer than five players numbered 50-79.

I get what you and Jason are saying - I really do - and will officiate it that way, I just don't see how something that is defined and created by rule - the exception created when the snapper placed his hands on the ball - can go away without a rule statement (possible exception) stating that it goes away - as you stated, it just 'apparently' does, I'd like to see something more definitive in the rule to address it.

[TxBJ]

The rule addresses the situation where there are shifts and you end up with fewer than five players numbered 50-79 at the snap. Let me give you an example.

Team A lines up with: A80 A81 A82 A50 A51 A52 A83 A84 on the line. After the snapper has touched the ball A84 takes two full steps back and stops. The ball is snapped and both A83 and A84 go downfield on a pass route. This is illegal, as A83 became an exception when the snapper touched the ball even though he is apparently no longer an exception at the snap and you have fewer than five players numbered 50-79.

You would also have a foul for illegal formation, correct?

[JasonTX]

I get what you and Jason are saying - I really do - and will officiate it that way, I just don't see how something that is defined and created by rule - the exception created when the snapper placed his hands on the ball - can go away without a rule statement (possible exception) stating that it goes away - as you stated, it just 'apparently' does, I'd like to see something more definitive in the rule to address it.

Think of it as placing something on the shelf.  When something else happens, such as not having 5 players 50-79 at the snap, you pull those items off the shelf.  If they snap with 5 players 50-79 then you keep those items on the shelf as they no longer pertain to the situation.  It's similar to blocking below the waist.  At the snap A55 blocks below the waist immediately while in the tackle box and the ball is in the tackle box.  At that moment it is not illegal.  So, all is good right?  But then A22 decides to punt the ball a few seconds after the block had already happened.  But now we pull that item off the shelf for an otherwise legal block that has now become illegal because there was a kick.