Asking NFHS, but asking you first.....

[Ralph Damren]

This happened in a game yhis weekend..../..

(1) R1 returns kickoff from his 20;

(2) At 50, R1 is grabbed by facemask and helmet goes a' flying;  (15 FM)

(3) no whistles  and hatless runner goes to K's 20 where tackled  (IP)

(4) After discussion,  ref rules penalties offset and to replay the kickoff......

WHAT SAY YOU  .

[ncwingman]

Okay -- first issue, there were two fouls on K and they... *offset them*? 

[TSHunt]

That ball is dead when that runner's helmet came off, even though it wasn't stopped immediately.

Waive the IP, inform all relevant parties the ball became dead at 50 when the returner's helmet came off.

Enforce the Facemask to the 35 and thank your lucky stars that kid without his lid didn't get seriously injured. 

[SCline]

Can’t have IP because the down was over when the helmet came off the runner.

Enforce the FM from the 50, R 1/10 at K35.

[GA Umpire]

That ball is dead when that runner's helmet came off, even though it wasn't stopped immediately.

Waive the IP, inform all relevant parties the ball became dead at 50 when the returner's helmet came off.

Enforce the Facemask to the 35 and thank your lucky stars that kid without his lid didn't get seriously injured.

 

7-man crew

[ncwingman]

Second comment -- the dead ball shenanigans shouldn't be ignored. A player of K initiated contact with the helmet-less runner. This isn't Illegal Participation, but it IS Illegal Personal Contact (9-4-3i .. could be slightly off on the rule, my closest rule book at the moment is a few years old, but I don't think that's changed). That is a severe safety issue and shouldn't be waived off.

One could argue the helmet-less runner also committed a foul by continuing to run down the field, but that would be delay of game. I don't think you can charge him with IP, since the ball became dead once his helmet came off. If you wanted to erroneously call it IP, then the dead ball yardage cancels out and you just enforce the facemask from the 50, but we're kind of inventing rules at this point.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Second comment -- the dead ball shenanigans shouldn't be ignored. A player of K initiated contact with the helmet-less runner. This isn't Illegal Participation, but it IS Illegal Personal Contact (9-4-3i .. could be slightly off on the rule, my closest rule book at the moment is a few years old, but I don't think that's changed). That is a severe safety issue and shouldn't be waived off.

One could argue the helmet-less runner also committed a foul by continuing to run down the field, but that would be delay of game. I don't think you can charge him with IP, since the ball became dead once his helmet came off. If you wanted to erroneously call it IP, then the dead ball yardage cancels out and you just enforce the facemask from the 50, but we're kind of inventing rules at this point.

No way that I'm calling a penalty on either of the 2 "fouls" after the crew failed to whistle the play dead when the runner's helmet was initially ripped off.  IMHO that's on us 100% of the time.

[Fatso]

Okay -- first issue, there were two fouls on K and they... *offset them*? 

One on K (facemask) and one on R (illegal participation playing without a helmet).  So this appears to be a clean hands situation.  Both fouls are after change of possession.  I believe R can decline the facemask penalty but will be penalized for their IP from the 50.  They can play 1/10 from own 35 or accept the facemask and replay down for offsetting penalties.

One could argue the helmet-less runner also committed a foul by continuing to run down the field, but that would be delay of game. I don't think you can charge him with IP, since the ball became dead once his helmet came off. If you wanted to erroneously call it IP, then the dead ball yardage cancels out and you just enforce the facemask from the 50, but we're kind of inventing rules at this point.

Continuing to play without a helmet is IP not DOG, nothing erroneous about it.  It's a safety foul.

[ncwingman]

One on K (facemask) and one on R (illegal participation playing without a helmet).  So this appears to be a clean hands situation.  Both fouls are after change of possession.  I believe R can decline the facemask penalty but will be penalized for their IP from the 50.  They can play 1/10 from own 35 or accept the facemask and replay down for offsetting penalties.

 Continuing to play without a helmet is IP not DOG, nothing erroneous about it.  It's a safety foul.

The ball is dead once the runner loses his helmet. A runner without a helmet cannot illegally participate - but it is illegal for any other player to engage with somebody who has lost a helmet. If the ball is dead and the runner continues to run down the field, that's delay of game.

I'm assuming the foul in line 3 is not on the runner for running away from everybody else and trying not to engage in contact, but on the K player who saw a helmet-less player and decided to tackle him.

The take home message here is that the crew screwed up in several ways.

[Steely Dan]

The ball is dead once the runner loses his helmet. A runner without a helmet cannot illegally participate - but it is illegal for any other player to engage with somebody who has lost a helmet. If the ball is dead and the runner continues to run down the field, that's delay of game.

In NFHS, it's a 15 yd penalty "Participating without a helmet"  ILP/PWH.  Rule is 9-6-4g.

[NVFOA_Ump]

In NFHS, it's a 15 yd penalty "Participating without a helmet"  ILP/PWH.

Except at the point the runner loses his helmet the play is OVER and the ball is DEAD.  He by rule cannot and is not "participating" at that point.  How can you have a live ball fouls after the play has ended by rule???

[Steely Dan]

Except at the point the runner loses his helmet the play is OVER and the ball is DEAD.  He by rule cannot and is not "participating" at that point.  How can you have a live ball fouls after the play has ended by rule???

Makes sense, sorry.

[Ralph Damren]

Word from NFHS......

(1) The play should have been blown dead when the runner's helmet came off (4-2-2K).

(2) Where the play wasn't blown dead, the ball remained alive. 

(3) The hatless runner was guilty of playing without a helmet (9-6-4g).   

(4) The hatless runner was then tackled by an opponent. (9-4-3L) 

(5) R got the ball with clean hands and could decline K's fouls and take the ball at their 35 after IP enforcement. OR replay the free kick. The game officials confurred and did a "do-over" (10-2-1). We  refer to it as replaying the down/kick.  The hatless runner would not have to sit out a play as he lost his helmet via an illegal act.

EVEN A BROKEN CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY. 

[Snapper]

EVEN A BROKEN CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY. 

So, I guess that means that a stopped clock is about 4 times more accurate than the NFHS Editorial Committee??? 

[SCline]

(2) Where the play wasn't blown dead, the ball remained alive.

Uhm, what?

Did the folks you talked to forget about football fundamental 3-1?

[refjeff]

4-2-2-k.  The ball becomes dead and the down is ended: When the helmet comes completely off the runner. 

Does not say "but only if the covering official(s) blow their whistle."

Two players will be penalized because they didn't know the rules any better than the game officials?  I'm not doing that. 

[NVFOA_Ump]

4-2-2-k.  The ball becomes dead and the down is ended: When the helmet comes completely off the runner. 

Does not say "but only if the covering official(s) blow their whistle."

Two players will be penalized because they didn't know the rules any better than the game officials?  I'm not doing that.

  - Agreed, We simply cannot penalize teams because we made an obvious error in enforcing the clear rule here.  Our bad, move on.

[DJW201]

The Federation answer is nonsensical.

After the ball becomes dead by rule, any foul should be ignored, except a personal foul or unsportsmanlike conduct, which still must be enforced during a dead ball period.  If the ball is already dead, a whistle does not kill the play.

What about a long field goal attempt that is short and the crew allows the defensive team returner to bring the ball out of the end zone?  If there is a holding foul on the return, what do you do with it?

Unfortunately, mistakes have consequences.