preseason quiz 3, question 4 (modified)

[dammitbobby]

Have had some conversations with a friend around this one, Q4 from preseason quiz 3 (slightly modified.)

4. 3/4.75 @ B-5 (LTG is 1/4 yardline) Ball carrier A21 is hit and his forward progress stopped inbounds at the 1/2 yardline at the sideline to his right. When he is stopped at the B-0.5, he has the ball in his right hand extended beyond the goal line outside the pylon.

A: 4/G @1/2 yardline.

I know this is not a TD since GL extended has not been activated (touching a pylon or  EZ.) But, if this had occurred at B-35, and he reached ball out to B-34, wouldn't we give him the B-34?

Where is the the specific rule that says the ball comes back to where the runner was ruled down, when inbounds? I see 4-2-4-d exception, which is pretty clear that progress is determined where ball crossed the sideline, but only for airborne ball carriers. I don't see anything that addresses the location of the ball when he is ruled down inbounds, but ball is extended OOB.

[JasonTX]

5-1-3 and the associated AR's

[Kalle]

I think A.R. 8-2-1-VII is the best.

[dammitbobby]

We all agree that the play ends 4th and goal at the B-1 with no touchdown. What I'm asking is which rule produces the spot.

8-2-1-VII has the runner stepping on a) the goal line, b) stepping on the sideline; neither apply here.

5-1-3-a: The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down.
AR 5-1-3-IV: A4, with the ball breaking the plane of the 50-yard line while in his possession, dives over the 50-yard line, which is the line to gain for a first down. He is knocked back to Team A’s 49-yard line, where any part of his body except his hand or foot touches the ground. RULING: First down at forward progress spot (Rule 4-1-3-b).

No issue with that.

4-2-4-d exception gives progress as the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline, but only if they are airborne as they cross the sideline, or a striding runner (also crossing the sideline); in this scenario , the runner is completely inbounds.

Totally fine.

But in this scenario, the most forward point of the ball in this scenario, isn't at ANY yard line. It's in no man's land - it's past the goal line extended, (which we known is not extended for scoring purposes in this scenario, just using it as a reference point here). 5-1-3 can't apply, because we obviously can't put the ball in the EZ, even though it's technically past the goal line. We can’t use 4-2-4-d because the runner did not cross the sideline, he was completely inbounds.

What specific rule says when a runner is down inbounds, with the ball extended out of bounds, the spot is where the runner is at?

[Kalle]

There is no specific rule (there could be), but we can work it out from what the rules say.

First, could this be a TD? For that, it would have to be in player possession and penetrate the plane of the goal line (8-2-1-a). It does not (extension does not apply), so it cannot be a TD.

Next up, forward progress. Rule 5-1-3-a says that the most forward point of the ball when the ball becomes dead is the forward progress spot. This would be beyond the GL, so it cannot be there.

A.R. 8-2-1-VII-b says that when the ball becomes dead so that the ball carrier is not beyond the GL and the ball is beyond the GL but not breaking the plane of the GL, the forward progress spot is where the ball crosses the side line. The original question is ambiguous, but B-1/2 is plausible.

It would be nice if 8-2-1-VII had this case as the third alternative.

[dammitbobby]

There is no specific rule (there could be), but we can work it out from what the rules say.

First, could this be a TD? For that, it would have to be in player possession and penetrate the plane of the goal line (8-2-1-a). It does not (extension does not apply), so it cannot be a TD.

Next up, forward progress. Rule 5-1-3-a says that the most forward point of the ball when the ball becomes dead is the forward progress spot. This would be beyond the GL, so it cannot be there.

A.R. 8-2-1-VII-b says that when the ball becomes dead so that the ball carrier is not beyond the GL and the ball is beyond the GL but not breaking the plane of the GL, the forward progress spot is where the ball crosses the side line. The original question is ambiguous, but B-1/2 is plausible.

It would be nice if 8-2-1-VII had this case as the third alternative.

I don't disagree with you... but I'd have a hard time time explaining to a coach that if the LTG was the 1/4 yard line, and he was down inbound at the 1/2 but extended the ball out past the LTG as described, that he doesn't get a first down, when I don't have a rule that directly applies to this situation. (I can easily defend it not being a TD by rule.)