Author Topic: illegal use of helmet  (Read 36171 times)

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Offline brownie

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2010, 08:59:16 PM »
So, my question is - are you making the point that we should consider taking the "when in doubt" statement in 9-1-3 to more of an extreme given the injury potential of this play? Quite frankly, at least in my games over the past years, this has not been a foul that we have called that much, nor missed at all - at least from our evaluator's reviews.

Any rules that have the "When in question, it is a foul" part I take to mean if you're not 100% sure it's said foul, but you're leaning more towards it being said foul than not, then you call it as a foul.

The fact that you've had officials on your crew get down-grades for what they saw on the field not holding up when you slow things down and look at it on film seems off to me. If it's a "When in question, it is a foul", and that's what they've done, what's with the down grade?, which I assumes basically means you blew the call.  Not saying the "When in question" gives you licence to make a wrong call without any ramifications but if on the field they felt it was iron-clad surely that falls we'll and truly into the "When in question" part of the rule.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 11:35:07 PM by brownie »

The Ref Thats Lef

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2010, 04:02:40 AM »
What you see is illegal.

How can you say this is illegal? From the photo there is no way to tell if contact was initiated with the crown of the helmet.

You really need to read what KB said. There is no way a photo can prove or disprove a football situation conclusively.

110

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2010, 06:21:33 AM »
How can you say this is illegal? From the photo there is no way to tell if contact was initiated with the crown of the helmet.

You really need to read what KB said. There is no way a photo can prove or disprove a football situation conclusively.



OK, Devil's advocate stuff aside, the OP is missing a key point.

What's always said in clinics? SEE THE WHOLE PLAY. A frame does not a whole play make. The above picture is clearly an exception to that mantra.

saofficial(aust)

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2010, 05:28:54 PM »
So, my question is - are you making the point that we should consider taking the "when in doubt" statement in 9-1-3 to more of an extreme given the injury potential of this play? Quite frankly, at least in my games over the past years, this has not been a foul that we have called that much, nor missed at all - at least from our evaluator's reviews.

When in doubt and when in question are 2 different things. In doubt is not in the rule book but when in question is. If you have doubt you dont throw the flag but if you question did it look like .... and the rule supports throwing the flag then do so and no supervisor should ever downgrade you on that call, even from film.


I've had officials on my crew get down-grades for what they thought was iron-clad helmet to helmet as seen on the field, only to see it on film and it was shoulder to helmet - with the point being the facemask vs crown is an even finer line.  It is a tough call and one we have to make, but clearly one that we all want to get right.


So we have people here complaining about a still photo but then you get supervisors slowing down your actions to assess your performance and judge your judgement and then downgrade you on slow motion rather than full speed. This seems to be contradictory to what you have said to at seeing everything at full speed. That would be a poor system to work by if I had my performance slowed down and given feedback when I am working at full speed.

If the helmet did glance off a shoulder and into a defenceless players helmet and a helmet to helmet call made then the why was the defender up that high in the first place? He has the duty of care to not be going near a helmet to helmet clash. So if you miss the glance off the shoulder but see the contact with the helmet and this rule has when in question added to it then why get a downgrade? You took the safety angle and made a call at full speed not slow motion which the supervisor has the luxury of doing.

Sorry that seems a little contradictory to the system and training to be marked on slow motion and grading.


GWK

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2010, 10:17:27 PM »
saofficial(Aust): I must say that I have read both pages of this thread to this point and cannot really understand your point.  Sure safety is the primary issue, and I believe most of us who have been doing this for some time have that as the first priority.  To spend all this time quibbling over what can or cannot be seen in a few photos has really become tiresome.  If you actually wanted to improve as an official instead of seeking some sort of notoriety or other hidden goal, then you have plenty of folks with decades of experience on this board from whom to draw.  I urge you to adopt an accepting attitude and strive to improve so that you can indeed look out in the best way possible for the safety of the players.

And just as a historical note, if you can discern some difference between “when in question” and “when in doubt”, then you are indeed a better man.  I was there when this “when in question” phrase hit the NCAA rule book.  David M. Nelson, then the editor of the NCAA rules book, was the featured speaker at a rules clinic in Houston some time back in the early ‘80’s.   He promulgated a series of “when in doubt” rulings that he was going to bring to the rules committee for the following season.  Mr. Raleigh Girourd, a very iconic Cajun referee from the Beaumont Chapter who was made of the same humor as Red Cashion, piped up and told Mr. Nelson that while every now and then he may be in question, that he was never in doubt.  All in the place fell over themselves laughing, especially Dave Nelson.  The next year, all those proposed rule rewrites came out with the phrase “when in question”.   The moral of this true story?   Don’t take yourself so seriously, lighten up and work a good game.

saofficial(aust)

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2010, 07:38:27 PM »
A good reason to be use the when in question rule to its fullest extent:
Sporting official blamed for athlete injury

Smolden V Whitworth (1996)

A referee was held liable for injuries sustained by one of the players in a rugby union match.

The player's neck was broken and he became a paraplegic after a scrum in which he was participating collapsed.

The basis for the referee's liability was that he had repeatedly failed to enforce a rule which had been specifically brought into the game (which involved young and inexperienced players), to minimise the risk of injury.

Basically the rule was intended to ensure that a scrum was created with some stability so that there would be minimum possibility of collapse.

Decisions like this indicate that it may be time for referees and related sporting clubs to review their legal liability insurance cover

and again - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/2573291.stm, www.sportslaw-uk.co.uk/Richard%20Vowles%20report.pdf

This may highlight the differences in approach to the games for officials in our different systems.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 07:55:19 PM by saofficial(aust) »

TheStrippedOne

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2010, 02:53:58 PM »
You cant really compare the requirements of rugby officials and Football officials, the formation and application of a scrum is and integral part of a rugby refs role to ensure it is done properly, there is nowhere within football that requires officials to set up and impliment a play, we may rule on the legality of a formation and the ensueing play but we dont set them up.

As for the pics
1, nothing there as yet you cant rule on potential outcomes
2, likley but as already said need to see the whole thing
3, no problem with this play.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 02:56:13 PM by TheStrippedOne »

saofficial(aust)

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2010, 05:10:47 PM »
You cant really compare the requirements of rugby officials and Football officials, the formation and application of a scrum is and integral part of a rugby refs role to ensure it is done properly, there is nowhere within football that requires officials to set up and impliment a play, we may rule on the legality of a formation and the ensueing play but we dont set them up.

As for the pics
1, nothing there as yet you cant rule on potential outcomes
2, likley but as already said need to see the whole thing
3, no problem with this play.

Well yes you can becuse you see a player set up for a tackle and know if he does it right or wrong. If he does it wrong then he must be penalised, even when in question. Now we see these players every week here in Aust so know their styles and actions we dont have the luxury of seeing a team just once a year. If I saw a player just once or twice a year then I wouldnt have this problem but I see them for 8 to 10 games a year plus finals spanning a 10 year career if lucky and that could lead up to a lot of evidence of call or no call to remember. A scrum may happen a number of times in a game for a rugby referee and he must control that action in that game but what evidence is being collected on me over time and my style?

Oh and yes I have been threatened with legal action from a coach in a tribuanl system to use video footage of me 'cheating' for calls and no calls over a season though I know it would be bs but they were preparing for it. Personnel in a league are starting to realise that this build up of evidence over time may be addressed.




110

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2010, 05:25:19 PM »
...Now we see these players every week here in Aust so know their styles and actions we dont have the luxury of seeing a team just once a year. If I saw a player just once or twice a year then I wouldnt have this problem but I see them for 8 to 10 games a year plus finals spanning a 10 year career if lucky and that could lead up to a lot of evidence of call or no call to remember.

I honestly don't think you realize how bad this looks. Now you're admitting to profiling?

Please heed the very wise words of better and wiser officials. Don't go "hunting" for calls. See the whole play, call the player safety fouls and only those fouls that affect play.

saofficial(aust)

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2010, 06:38:12 PM »
profiling? are you for real?

maybe you're being profiled by coaches and supervisors so they get to pick and choose who they want in crews based on generalised characteristics of you as an official?

that has been tried here and doesnt work. crew is chosen and not changed because a coach doesnt like an official for some reason. you cant say that hasnt happened? that is profiling.

I read where an official who lost his eye sight in one eye and his supervisor had been grading him higher in his performance with one eye  than with 2 eyes previously but a coach complained and he was then scrated from games. That is profiling a person over their ability. In fact it is descrimination based on a disability as proof was made he was doing a better job than before. Does anyone know what happened in this case since I may not have the full and complete story on it?

I am talking about familiarity of people you know. Yes we do know these people as our league is only 200 members in size. this is not profiling and guessing it is knowing and understanding. yes do call what you see but if you see the same thing 5 games in a row by the same player what to do then because you do have a duty of care to the participant as a teacher. this is where our 2 systems may then differ in their legalities. that is not profiling.



sorry for some spelling errors
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 07:20:36 PM by saofficial(aust) »

HAshleyTX

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2010, 06:59:16 PM »
Okay, okay...OKAY!!  You're right about whatever the hell this whole thing was about.  Geeeeeezzzz!

110

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2010, 07:47:04 PM »
this is where our 2 systems may then differ in their legalities. that is not profiling.

Uh, no. You ain't getting it.

You've had several veteran officials with much better insight offer input, insight and advice (And no, I don't include me in that mix, fwiw.) You have utterly failed to recognise the subtle hints, the blatant hints and the obvious ...

So you don't want to change. Then why did you come here in the first place?

TheStrippedOne

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2010, 03:54:01 AM »
Well yes you can becuse you see a player set up for a tackle and know if he does it right or wrong. If he does it wrong then he must be penalised, even when in question. Now we see these players every week here in Aust so know their styles and actions we dont have the luxury of seeing a team just once a year. If I saw a player just once or twice a year then I wouldnt have this problem but I see them for 8 to 10 games a year plus finals spanning a 10 year career if lucky and that could lead up to a lot of evidence of call or no call to remember. A scrum may happen a number of times in a game for a rugby referee and he must control that action in that game but what evidence is being collected on me over time and my style?

Not really as the rugby ref actually instigates and controls the scrum, we as football officials watch the whole of the play and if there is an infraction decide on the saftey aspect the effect on the play then make the call , we dont wander into the middle of th field tell he players to set then engage and stop and reset them if we dont like what we see.

Ive been seeing some of the same players/coaches for the last 17 years so how many times you see them should have no impact on what you do and how you call the game. If you are more concerned on how you are being percieved instead of actually officiating then maybe a change in sport is required,


bitols

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2010, 10:22:01 AM »
Okay, okay...OKAY!!  You're right about whatever the hell this whole thing was about.  Geeeeeezzzz!

I agree !  ;D

The Ref Thats Lef

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2010, 04:23:44 PM »
The whole point of this discussion is not if leading with the crown of the helmet is legal or not. It is illegal to use the top of your helmet to connect with an opponent. We all agree that and if we saw it we would call it.

What we are saying is you cannot determine that a foul happened from a still picture. We have no way of knowing if what happened was the foul we all agree is illegal.

In the same way how would a picture of a collapsed scrum prove that it had been done deliberately in your rugby example? Although if it the same as the Welsh Rugby Union case the problem was that scrums were not permitted in that type of game and the ref allowed them.

Please note in this discussion no one is saying a helmet block is legal and should not be called. What we are saying is you cannot tell from a photo if it was a helmet block. It might have been or it might not. We cannot tell. Show us a video of the incident and we would be much better able to offer a valid opinion to the legality of the action.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: illegal use of helmet
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2010, 05:45:39 PM »
The number one guideline for calling a foul in American football is to see the entire situation develop.  You cannot flag any number of plays that look illegal if you did not see the entire play as it develops.  The only point here, is that on a possible contact foul it's virtually impossible to determine foul vs. no foul based on an instant in time (a still photo).
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel