Another note from RR on 10-second runoff

[zebra99]

There doesn't need to be 11 players set for a second, but ALL players. There were more than 11 out there, then subs running in, and others running out. This rule would have covered the play. The clinic I was just at was lead by Rick Kruger, who was the H for the game. LeMonnier said specifically that it would have covered the play in Rick's game.

But let's change it a bit - assume the 11 players (which include the incoming subs) ARE set for a second, but the outgoing players "replaced players" are trying to run off the field at the snap - and all of this occurs after the ball was made ready for play, meaning it was put down by the U.   What now?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Don't RR's 2011 clarifications cover this with the guidance that now says if we've got more than 11 on the field we kill the play immediately even if the ball has been snapped?  So we would still have the clock stopping due to a foul (Illegal Substitution), and have the ten second run-off.

[MJT]

Don't RR's 2011 clarifications cover this with the guidance that now says if we've got more than 11 on the field we kill the play immediately even if the ball has been snapped?  So we would still have the clock stopping due to a foul (Illegal Substitution), and have the ten second run-off.

Agreed.

BTW, for some reason (maybe to be different from the NFL), our rule is called a 10 second subtraction.

[zebra99]

Don't RR's 2011 clarifications cover this with the guidance that now says if we've got more than 11 on the field we kill the play immediately even if the ball has been snapped?  So we would still have the clock stopping due to a foul (Illegal Substitution), and have the ten second run-off.

I've read RR's clarification and, I'm sorry, but I do not see a direct reference requiring us to shut it down if the replaced A players are trying to get off the field and don't make it before the snap.  Can someone enlighten me please?

[NVFOA_Ump]

From one of the earlier postings (April 12th):

Rule 3-5-3 More Than Eleven Players on the Field

a. Team A may not break the huddle with more than 11 players nor keep more than 11 players in the huddle or in a formation for more than three seconds. Officials shall stop the action whether or not the ball has been snapped.

The new wording if it ends up in the rule book effectively eliminates the illegal participation language and instructs us to shut down the play if there is more than 11 players on the field before or after the snap.  The original posting with all of RR's explanation is attached.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[zebra99]

From one of the earlier postings (April 12th):

Rule 3-5-3 More Than Eleven Players on the Field

a. Team A may not break the huddle with more than 11 players nor keep more than 11 players in the huddle or in a formation for more than three seconds. Officials shall stop the action whether or not the ball has been snapped.

The new wording if it ends up in the rule book effectively eliminates the illegal participation language and instructs us to shut down the play if there is more than 11 players on the field before or after the snap.  The original posting with all of RR's explanation is attached.

I've read that posting and to me it doesn't cover the situation where the replaced players are racing to get off the field.  3-5-3-a talks about breaking the huddle which doesn't apply to my example and the in formation for more than 3 seconds doesn't apply either so I don't see how that rule applies to my example.  Perhaps an official interpretation will have us shut it down but RR's examples did not describe this play.

And that surprises me - why not give a play example exactly like this situation as it occurs not that infrequently?  Again, there was no huddle and and there was no formation for more than 3 seconds.

[Hawkeye]

I agree zebra99, it doesn't specifically state that if team A fails to get players in excess of 11 off the field prior to the snap that we shut it down.  And unless there is an editorial change to 3-5-2-b, making it a dead ball foul, RR would have to make an interpretation instructing us to shut it down.

[zebra99]

I agree zebra99, it doesn't specifically state that if team A fails to get players in excess of 11 off the field prior to the snap that we shut it down.  And unless there is an editorial change to 3-5-2-b, making it a dead ball foul, RR would have to make an interpretation instructing us to shut it down.

agree and 3-5-2-b applis only to the defense, so it would have to be a change to or in addition to 3-5-2-a.

[Hawkeye]

3-5-2-a is about entering the field while ball is in play and 3-5-2-b is about leaving the field while the ball is in play.  I don't see where either of these sections apply only to one team.

[NVFOA_Ump]

IMO RR's overall explanation in the full posting for new rule 3-5-3 he makes the "intent" extremely clear in that if we are aware that there are 11-plus on the field for either team and the ball is snapped then we should kill the play immediately.  As noted previously, it remains to be seen exactly what new/revised rule language and AR's make it into the actual 2011 rulebook to implement that intent.

[zebra99]

3-5-2-a is about entering the field while ball is in play and 3-5-2-b is about leaving the field while the ball is in play.  I don't see where either of these sections apply only to one team.

Hawkeye - now you have me totally confused (not that hard to do) - you cite 3-5-2 a and b.  RR's changes are to 3-5-3 a and b.  3-5-2-b in the rule book specifically states "live-ball foul."

I'm talking about RR's brand new 3-5-3 and subparagraph b refers only to Team B.

[ref6983]

IMO RR's overall explanation in the full posting for new rule 3-5-3 he makes the "intent" extremely clear in that if we are aware that there are 11-plus on the field for either team and the ball is snapped then we should kill the play immediately.  As noted previously, it remains to be seen exactly what new/revised rule language and AR's make it into the actual 2011 rulebook to implement that intent.

It seems to me that the wording Rogers used was meant to emphasize that if an official detects a violation of 3-5-3 a and b prior to the snap, then the play is to be shut down whether the snap gets off or not.

I have no reason to believe that anything has changed with respect to AR 3-5-2I, which we've always used to make it a live ball foul when the 12th player is running toward the sideline at the snap and he was not in the huddle when it broke nor in the huddle or the formation for more than 3 seconds.

[zebra99]

IMO RR's overall explanation in the full posting for new rule 3-5-3 he makes the "intent" extremely clear in that if we are aware that there are 11-plus on the field for either team and the ball is snapped then we should kill the play immediately.  As noted previously, it remains to be seen exactly what new/revised rule language and AR's make it into the actual 2011 rulebook to implement that intent.

I hope that's the intent - but how hard is it to write a rule which clearly states it by simply working into new rule 3-5-3-b, Team A?

Anyway, it ain't that "extremely" clear to me!

[Diablo]

A side issue.
How do we define/determine "the snap is imminent"?
Is it when the snapper has his hands on the ball or below his knees or is just standing upright over the ball?
Does the position and/or posture of the QB influence the determination?

[Hawkeye]

Hawkeye - now you have me totally confused (not that hard to do) - you cite 3-5-2 a and b.  RR's changes are to 3-5-3 a and b.  3-5-2-b in the rule book specifically states "live-ball foul."

I'm talking about RR's brand new 3-5-3 and subparagraph b refers only to Team B.

Sorry for the confusion, We don't know what the new 3-5-2 will look like in the light of the new section 3-5-3, but currently (2010 rules) 3-5-2-b covers the case of a player racing to get off the field (team A or B) and specifically states it is a live ball foul.  I was saying that RR could make an editorial change to the current 3-5-2-b changing it to a dead ball foul if he hasn't gotten off the field when the ball is snapped thus covering the case that you are concerned about.  But we'll have to see.

Perhaps someone close to RR can give him this scenario stating the perceived oversight and see what RR thinks of it.

[zebra99]

Sorry for the confusion, We don't know what the new 3-5-2 will look like in the light of the new section 3-5-3, but currently (2010 rules) 3-5-2-b covers the case of a player racing to get off the field (team A or B) and specifically states it is a live ball foul.  I was saying that RR could make an editorial change to the current 3-5-2-b changing it to a dead ball foul if he hasn't gotten off the field when the ball is snapped thus covering the case that you are concerned about.  But we'll have to see.

Perhaps someone close to RR can give him this scenario stating the perceived oversight and see what RR thinks of it.

NACFO had access to RR and Dave Parry, but ... alas...may NACFO rest in peace.   Now we must go through our supervisors.

[MJT]

LeMonnier did the rules at the clinic I was at and he had been in a detailed discussion with Rogers and said this is still to be a live ball foul.

[sj_31]

Ok so back to the original few posts in this thread...

If the game clock is running and the offended team accepts the yardage penalty but declines the 10-second runoff, we still start the game clock on the snap (even though that's not specifically stated in the rule)?

[El Macman]

Ok so back to the original few posts in this thread...

If the game clock is running and the offended team accepts the yardage penalty but declines the 10-second runoff, we still start the game clock on the snap (even though that's not specifically stated in the rule)?

Check Play situation 4 in the related Bulletin. If the offended teams takes the yardage penalty, but declines the time subtraction, the clock starts on the snap. If the yardage penalty (and, thus, the time subtraction) is declined, the clock starts on the snap. So, by these rulings, the only time it starts on the RFP signal is when the offended team takes BOTH the yardage and time subtraction.

[Diablo]

I have no reason to believe that anything has changed with respect to AR 3-5-2I, which we've always used to make it a live ball foul when the 12th player is running toward the sideline at the snap and he was not in the huddle when it broke nor in the huddle or the formation for more than 3 seconds.

AR 3-5-2-I reads: 
Any player(s), in excess of 11, obviously is withdrawing but has not reached a boundary line when the ball is put in play and he does not interfere with play or players. RULING: Penalty—Five yards from the previous spot (Rules 7-1-3-b Penalty and 7-1-4-b Penalty).

What is the significance in citing  7-1-3-b Penalty and 7-1-4-b Penalty?  What bearing do those rules have on the play in the AR?

[ref6983]

AR 3-5-2-I reads: 
Any player(s), in excess of 11, obviously is withdrawing but has not reached a boundary line when the ball is put in play and he does not interfere with play or players. RULING: Penalty—Five yards from the previous spot (Rules 7-1-3-b Penalty and 7-1-4-b Penalty).

What is the significance in citing  7-1-3-b Penalty and 7-1-4-b Penalty?  What bearing do those rules have on the play in the AR?

None that I can think of, however, those penalties seem to specify that fouls before the snap (FST, etc) are penalized from the "succeeding spot" and fouls at the snap are live ball fouls and penalized from the "previous spot". Since AR 3-5-2I notes the penalty as "previous spot", then I think we can conclude that the foul for replaced players not getting off the field at the snap is a live ball foul.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I still believe from the language in the new 3-5-3 that Hawkeye's previous comment is where this will end up:

..... I was saying that RR could make an editorial change to the current 3-5-2-b changing it to a dead ball foul if he hasn't gotten off the field when the ball is snapped ......

[sj_31]

Is it accurate to say that anytime we have players/subs/replaced players of A trying to get off the field that we shut it down for illegal substitution, regardless of who was set and when? Just need a scenario when we would have Team A players trying to get off the field and we'd let it go as a live-ball IS.

[zebra99]

Is it accurate to say that anytime we have players/subs/replaced players of A trying to get off the field that we shut it down for illegal substitution, regardless of who was set and when?

I don't think we can use "anytime" as a guideline - it's possible that A didn't break the huddle with more than 11, nor keep more than 11 in formation for more than 3 seconds, and the 12th player is trying to get off the field - to me that's a live ball foul.  I beleive we'll hear from RR that he wants it that way.

[sj_31]

I agree that "always" is a slippery slope. I just wish it were that easy.

We've all had this happen at one time or another...So for example you have 11 break the huddle (or maybe no-huddle) and head to the line of scrimmage. Thinking the offense only has 10 on the field, a coach sends the 12th player out there. The coach or 12th player then correctly counts and realizes he's #12. So he immediately turns and runs back toward the sideline. He doesn't get off in time at the snap.

Does the following sound correct?

Scenario 1: If all 11 had set for one second before #12 entered the field, then he didn't get off in time then we have a live-ball illegal substitution (or illegal shift?).

Scenario 2: The offense is hustling to the line (not set) when 12 comes running out, then if he doesn't get off in time we have a dead-ball false start, even if the original eleven got set at the line for once second before 12 made it off.