2011 False Start / Illegal Shift Rules

[El Macman]

Regarding the 2011 rule change for false starts and illegal shifts, we must know Team A's status WHEN THE  BALL IS MADE READY FOR PLAY. It makes a big difference. If Team A is shifting (two or more players moving simultaneously) at the moment the ball is made ready for play, then Team A must stop for one full second before the snap. While that, in itself, is not new, the fact that a failure by Team A to stop for one full second before attempting a snap is now a FALSE START is new. Prior to now, that would have been a live-ball illegal shift. No more. That helps us tremendously in those mass substitution scenarios when Team A sends in substitutes, and they aren't all set for a second before they try to snap the ball. Players trying to get off the field count, too. While they may have 11 players set for a second, if players 12, 13, etc., are trying to get off the field, and either fail to get off the field, or are off the field but the 11 final players aren't set for one full second, before they attempt a snap, that will now be a dead-ball false start, and we shut the play down as soon as the attempted snap begins. But that is ALL contingent upon Team A being in the process of shifting at the moment the ball becomes ready for play.

On the other hand, if any of that happens after all players of Team A have set for one full second following the ball being ready for play (or are already set at the moment the ball becomes RFP), then any such foul will be a live-ball illegal shift, and we let the play run it's course.

RR gives example plays in his bulletin on this, but here are some other scenarios discussion or comment. Check 'em out and see if my understanding is correct.
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-4/10, B-20; A=8, B=10, 3rd period. 3rd down ended inbounds with 8:00 on the game clock. Immediately at the end of 3rd down, Team A's field goal team begins entering the field, and Team A's players in the previous play begin exiting the field. The umpire spots the ball at the succeeding spot with 7:55 on the game clock. Team A's field goal team settles into their pre-snap positions, and Team B has had opportunity to "match up." With 7:50 on the game clock, the snapper begins an attempted snap, while several departing Team A players are still at the bottom of the numbers. The holder receives the ball and the kicker kicks the ball which passes over the cross-bar, and between the uprights.
Ruling: Dead-ball false start - NO PLAY. A, 4/15, B-25; start game clock on RFP signal (25-second play clock).

-4/10, B-20; A=8, B=10, 4th period. 3rd down ended inbounds with 0:10 on the game clock. Immediately at the end of 3rd down, Team A's field goal team begins entering the field, and Team A's players in the previous play begin exiting the field. The umpire spots the ball at the succeeding spot with 0:07 on the game clock. Team A's field goal team settles into their pre-snap positions, and Team B has had opportunity to "match up." With 0:01 on the game clock, the snapper begins an attempted snap, while several departing Team A players are still at the bottom of the numbers. The holder receives the ball and the kicker kicks the ball which passes over the cross-bar, and between the uprights.
Ruling: Dead-ball false start - NO PLAY. By another new 2011 rule, Team B will accept the 10-second subtraction on the game clock; thus, the game is over.

-4/5, B-20; A=8, B=10, 4th period. 3rd down ended inbounds with 5:00 on the game clock. At the end of 3rd down, Team A's field goal team is gathered in their team area, near the B-25 extended. The umpire spots the ball at the succeeding spot with 4:55 on the game clock and 0:35 on the play clock. Team A's players from the previous down take positions and become set with 4:45/0:25 on the clocks. With 4:40/ 0:20 on the clocks, Team A sends in their field goal team (substituting everyone except the snapper) and the players on the field begin exiting the field. The 11 players of the field goal team get set for one full second and Team B has opportunity to "match up." Departing player A33, unsure if he is to leave the field or remain in the game, is still at the bottom of the numbers (having never stopped moving) when the ball is snapped. The holder receives the snap and the kicker kicks the ball which passes over the cross-bar, and between the uprights.
Ruling: Live-ball illegal shift - play continues. B will accept the penalty at the previous spot. A, 4/15, B-25; start game clock on snap (25-second play clock).

-4/10, 50; 1st period. Immediately at the end of 3rd down, Team A's punt team begins entering the field, and Team A's players in the previous play begin exiting the field. The umpire spots the ball at the succeeding spot. Team B has had opportunity to "match up." After all players of Team A stop for one full second, several Team A linemen adjust their positions on the line. A77 is still moving when the snap begins. A11 punts the ball which goes OB at the B-10.
Ruling: Live-ball illegal shift. B can have the penalty at the previous spot and repeat 4th down, or have the penalty 'tacked on' to the spot where the ball went OB. A, 4/15, A-45 (snap, 25), or B, 1/10 B-15 (snap. 25).

[zebra99]

on the replaced players not getting off in time thus creating a dead-ball false start, my supervisor checked with RR and was advised that departing players would NOT create a dead ball false start, rather it would be as before, illegal sub.

Now I have not seen this in writing from RR but don't be surprised if it's the official interpretation.

Here's the response to my email to my supervisor raising the issue:  "As expected, a player attempting to leave the field and not getting off in time will be an illegal sub and a live ball foul according to RR."

I don't necessarily like it because it's a hugh advantage to A.  They kick the FG, if good, defense takes the illegal sub penalty, BUT A gets another chance under calm circumstances.

This is all hearsay at this point so we'll see.

[El Macman]

Well, that's why I'm throwing these plays out there. RR's plays are easy - they only deal with 11 players, and nobody is trying to get off the field. I think the scenario with 11 getting set but departing players still on the field is the one that will cause us problems (as you indicated previously).

IMHO, the rules committee (or RR) is asking us to remember far too may sets of circumstances, each with different rulings.

Thanks, Z99.

[zebra99]

Well, that's why I'm throwing these plays out there. RR' plays are easy - they only deal with 11 players, and nobody is trying to get off the field. I think the scenario with 11 getting set but departing players still on the field is the one that will cause us problems (as you indicated previously).

IMHO, the rules committee (or RR) is asking us to remember far to may sets of circumstances, each with different rulings.

Thanks, Z99.

it is starting to get very complicated - general rules with all kinds of branches and sub-branches and circle backs!  Easy to follow at home with the rule book and written interps to refer to - but I've yet to figure out a way to sneak these docs onto the field in the heat of battle!

one thing for sure, RR is sure doing excellent work with his Notes!!

[TXMike]

And what happens when you go round in circles???  You don't get anywhere!  And that may be what has happened here.  The rule change was allegedly made to deal with the situation in the bowl game where a team hurried to the line of scrimmage and kicked the FG while mass confusion reigned and tiome was running out.  I though it was fixed...until now.   What happend in that game was precisely what you are talking about, subs/replaced players were running off the field as the ball was snapped.  Under this unofficial ruling from RR, that situation would NOT cause a runoff as it would be illegal sub not illegal shift/false start.  So it appears what was fixed, may not have been.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I've got to agree with TXMike here.  The referenced bowl game had the QB looking directly at an extra 3-4 departing players still leaving the field, realizing that the clock was going to run out, and then calling for the snap.  He effectively took an "intentional foul".  If the runoff penalty would not apply here then there's a huge oversight in the original statement of purpose for changing the rule to begin with.

It makes absolutely no sense to not apply the runoff when it's clear to everyone in the stadium that Team A intentionally snapped the ball, thereby intentionally fouling because the clock was going to run out if they waited.  Effectively they were rewarded for taking the penalty.

[ref6983]

And what happens when you go round in circles???  You don't get anywhere!  And that may be what has happened here.  The rule change was allegedly made to deal with the situation in the bowl game where a team hurried to the line of scrimmage and kicked the FG while mass confusion reigned and tiome was running out.  I though it was fixed...until now.   What happend in that game was precisely what you are talking about, subs/replaced players were running off the field as the ball was snapped.  Under this unofficial ruling from RR, that situation would NOT cause a runoff as it would be illegal sub not illegal shift/false start.  So it appears what was fixed, may not have been.

The rule was not changed to prevent teams from having replaced players not getting off the field in time for the snap based on what occurred in the Music City Bowl (let's ignore the fact that Team A had more than 11 in formation at the snap for the moment). The rule was changed to prevent a team from gaining an advantage by committing a foul that prevents the ball from becoming alive and stops the clock.

If we look at last second situations in general, there are two plays the offense will run: the spike and the FG. The spike is most common. There is simply no advantage gained for the offense to have 12 men on the field when the spike occurs. If there is time on the clock when the play ends, the foul moves the ball back 5 yards and the clock stops anyway for the incomplete pass. If there is no time, then the defense declines the foul and game over.

For the FG attempt, the replaced players should be able to easily leave the field by the time the FG team is set and snaps the ball. If they don't, then the foul is accepted if the FG is good and declined if not. There would be no advantage for the offense to "slow down" the replaced players in order to create a foul.

The Music City Bowl was simply a comedy of errors created due to the incompetence of Team A, not an attempt to gain an advantage. They actually tried to send the FG team in *and* spike the ball.

The FG team should never have entered the field since the QB had time to spike. I'm quite certain the team A coach did not send the FG team in and then have the ball snapped intentionally to gain an advantage because there is no way it could have.

As has been noted before, the offense did have more than 11 in formation at the snap, which should have been a dead ball foul that would have stopped the clock had it been discovered and would have created a 10 second subtraction. Thus, the rule change does indeed fix that exact play, so to say that the rule change does not correct the Music City Bowl situation is incorrect.

I see no reason for changing the rule to make it a dead ball foul for a replaced player to still be on the field at the snap based on this one bizarre play.

[zebra99]

The rule was not changed to prevent teams from having replaced players not getting off the field in time for the snap based on what occurred in the Music City Bowl (let's ignore the fact that Team A had more than 11 in formation at the snap for the moment). The rule was changed to prevent a team from gaining an advantage by committing a foul that prevents the ball from becoming alive and stops the clock.

If we look at last second situations in general, there are two plays the offense will run: the spike and the FG. The spike is most common. There is simply no advantage gained for the offense to have 12 men on the field when the spike occurs. If there is time on the clock when the play ends, the foul moves the ball back 5 yards and the clock stops anyway for the incomplete pass. If there is no time, then the defense declines the foul and game over.

For the FG attempt, the replaced players should be able to easily leave the field by the time the FG team is set and snaps the ball. If they don't, then the foul is accepted if the FG is good and declined if not. There would be no advantage for the offense to "slow down" the replaced players in order to create a foul.

The Music City Bowl was simply a comedy of errors created due to the incompetence of Team A, not an attempt to gain an advantage. They actually tried to send the FG team in *and* spike the ball.

The FG team should never have entered the field since the QB had time to spike. I'm quite certain the team A coach did not send the FG team in and then have the ball snapped intentionally to gain an advantage because there is no way it could have.

As has been noted before, the offense did have more than 11 in formation at the snap, which should have been a dead ball foul that would have stopped the clock had it been discovered and would have created a 10 second subtraction. Thus, the rule change does indeed fix that exact play, so to say that the rule change does not correct the Music City Bowl situation is incorrect.

I see no reason for changing the rule to make it a dead ball foul for a replaced player to still be on the field at the snap based on this one bizarre play.

In the FG situation, it is a huge advantage not to have to wait until your replaced players get off the field if waiting might mean the clock runs out!  Of course this rarely occurs, but when it does in a high profile game - you can bet your bottom dollar that the rule will change to specifically include a 10 second run off.

Example, A down by 2, ball is at the 10 yard line, running clock at12 seconds at the end of the previous play, 5 subs on the FG team come running in and get set with the remaining 6 in formation when clock is at 2 seconds.  The 5 replaced players are running off but nowhere near their sideline when the ball is snapped.  FG is good, time runs out.  B accepts 5 yard illegal sub penalty - so A now only has to kick the winning FG from the 15 yard line with plenty of time while the penalty is being enforced to get everyone together in a calm manner.

What does teh NFL do with this scenario?

[ref6983]

In the FG situation, it is a huge advantage not to have to wait until your replaced players get off the field if waiting might mean the clock runs out!  Of course this rarely occurs, but when it does in a high profile game - you can bet your bottom dollar that the rule will change to specifically include a 10 second run off.

Example, A down by 2, ball is at the 10 yard line, running clock at12 seconds at the end of the previous play, 5 subs on the FG team come running in and get set with the remaining 6 in formation when clock is at 2 seconds.  The 5 replaced players are running off but nowhere near their sideline when the ball is snapped.  FG is good, time runs out.  B accepts 5 yard illegal sub penalty - so A now only has to kick the winning FG from the 15 yard line with plenty of time while the penalty is being enforced to get everyone together in a calm manner.

What does teh NFL do with this scenario?

I understand your play on paper (and it must be 4th down, since the FG team is coming in, but if they were that close, Team A would most likely have kicked on 3rd down), but in practice I can't envision a normal scenario where 5 players will be able to enter *and* get set and 6 players are "nowhere near their sideline". If that did happen, then my hunch would be one or more of the players didn't leave immediately and the referee would be well within his rights to make this a dead ball foul per 3-5-3.

[TXMike]

The rule was not changed to prevent teams from having replaced players not getting off the field in time for the snap based on what occurred in the Music City Bowl (let's ignore the fact that Team A had more than 11 in formation at the snap for the moment). The rule was changed to prevent a team from gaining an advantage by committing a foul that prevents the ball from becoming alive and stops the clock.

If we look at last second situations in general, there are two plays the offense will run: the spike and the FG. The spike is most common. There is simply no advantage gained for the offense to have 12 men on the field when the spike occurs. If there is time  second subtraction. Thus, the rule change does indeed fix that exact play, so to say that the rule change does not correct the Music City Bowl situation is incorrect.

This is from RR's bulletin:

The making of the rules can be a fascinating process, illustrated perfectly by this new rule. Often one game can grab the attention of the country in such a way that a consensus quickly forms around the need for a rules change. And that’s what happened. The story of one of the 2010 bowl games was that the offensive team apparently created an unfair clock advantage that allowed them to kick a game-tying field goal and subsequently win the game in overtime. Largely as a result of that game, the rules committee in 2011 approved a rule that deals with a team gaining a clock advantage by committing a foul late in the game.
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To me this says a team should not be allowed to gain a clock advantage by fouling.  In the bowl game a team DID gain an advantage by fouling.  If the Qb had waited until he had the proper number of players and all were set, time would have expired.  Instead, he chose to cause his team to foul but took an action that would stop the clock, the spike.

[zebra99]

This is from RR's bulletin:

The making of the rules can be a fascinating process, illustrated perfectly by this new rule. Often one game can grab the attention of the country in such a way that a consensus quickly forms around the need for a rules change. And that’s what happened. The story of one of the 2010 bowl games was that the offensive team apparently created an unfair clock advantage that allowed them to kick a game-tying field goal and subsequently win the game in overtime. Largely as a result of that game, the rules committee in 2011 approved a rule that deals with a team gaining a clock advantage by committing a foul late in the game.
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To me this says a team should not be allowed to gain a clock advantage by fouling.  In the bowl game a team DID gain an advantage by fouling.  If the Qb had waited until he had the proper number of players and all were set, time would have expired.  Instead, he chose to cause his team to foul but took an action that would stop the clock, the spike.

and waited until the replaced players were off the field!

[zebra99]

I understand your play on paper (and it must be 4th down, since the FG team is coming in, but if they were that close, Team A would most likely have kicked on 3rd down), but in practice I can't envision a normal scenario where 5 players will be able to enter *and* get set and 6 players are "nowhere near their sideline". If that did happen, then my hunch would be one or more of the players didn't leave immediately and the referee would be well within his rights to make this a dead ball foul per 3-5-3.

3-5-3?  what page is that on?

[ref6983]

3-5-3?  what page is that on?

Don't know yet...I was specifically referencing the new 3-5-3a:

Rule 3-5-3
More Than Eleven Players on the Field
a. Team A may not break the huddle with more than 11 players nor keep more than 11 players in the huddle or in a formation for more than three seconds. Officials shall stop the action whether or not the ball has been snapped.
b. Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.
PENALTY--[a-b] Dead-ball foul. Five yards at the succeeding spot. [S22]
c. If officials do not detect the excessive number of players until during the down or after the down is over, the infraction is treated as a live-ball foul.
PENALTY--Live-ball foul. Five yards at the previous spot. [S22]

[zebra99]

Don't know yet...I was specifically referencing the new 3-5-3a:

Rule 3-5-3
More Than Eleven Players on the Field
a. Team A may not break the huddle with more than 11 players nor keep more than 11 players in the huddle or in a formation for more than three seconds. Officials shall stop the action whether or not the ball has been snapped.
b. Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.
PENALTY--[a-b] Dead-ball foul. Five yards at the succeeding spot. [S22]
c. If officials do not detect the excessive number of players until during the down or after the down is over, the infraction is treated as a live-ball foul.
PENALTY--Live-ball foul. Five yards at the previous spot. [S22]

ok - a little brain dead here (FB rules will cause that!) - the new 3-5-3 rule! - hard to say those yet to get off the field replaced players were in a huddle or in a formation, though.

oh well - it won't happen to my crew this year!