Author Topic: Holding on a pass play, NFHS rules (Read 21506 times)

BoBo · « **on:** August 24, 2011, 11:09:50 PM »

Ok we have college guys confusing fed rules with ncaa rules

3rd and 8 from the A's 40

QB drops back to pass and A66 holds on the A35.

Where is this penalty enforced from?

A's 35 or A's 40

thanks

Ump33 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2011, 05:46:00 AM »

NFHS ... Assuming a legal forward pass was attempted, enforce the Holding (if accepted) from the A35. All-But-One

mbyron · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2011, 06:41:00 AM »

Cross-posted from another site:

Quote from: BoBo;783545

The problem some people have is how the rule book states on loose ball plays fouls should be enforced from the previous spot, but people seem to struggle with the all but one principle.

Part of the reason people struggle stems from statements like this one. The book does not state that fouls during loose ball plays are enforced from the previous spot. It says the basic spot is the previous spot, and under ABO the basic spot might or might not be the enforcement spot.

When I took the class, the instructor made a hash of "all but one." I've had to figure it out by myself: all what? One what?

So, for those of us conversant with ABO, I apologize, but here's my 3 step lesson in ABO:

1. Two teams might foul, offense and defense.
2. The foul might occur in one of two locations, beyond or behind the basic spot. That's four types of fouls (offense fouls behind, offense fouls beyond, defense fouls behind, defense fouls beyond).
3. ALL types of foul BUT ONE type are penalized from the basic spot: the ONE is that fouls by the offense behind the basic spot are penalized from the spot of the foul.

You sometimes hear that "ABO doesn't apply," simply because the foul is not a foul by the offense behind the basic spot; that is incorrect. ABO always applies: if you have a foul by the defense, for example, ABO dictates basic spot enforcement. If you have a foul by the offense beyond the basic spot, ABO dictates basic spot enforcement.

john3459 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2011, 09:09:39 AM »

That is the best way I have seen the ABO explained. Thanks, I will use that in my pregame and tutoring new officials.

mbyron · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2011, 10:14:58 AM »

You're welcome. Glad to be of service!

TampaSteve · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2011, 01:33:34 PM »

The way I try to remember ABO: "what's going to put A the worst-off" - it generally leads me doen the correct path.

mbyron · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2011, 07:58:35 PM »

Quote from: TampaSteve on August 25, 2011, 01:33:34 PM

The way I try to remember ABO: "what's going to put A the worst-off" - it generally leads me doen the correct path.

Some guys in my association say this, but it doesn't work for me. IMO officials should use rule-book terms: basic spot, beyond or behind the basic spot, spot of the foul, etc. Plus your version doesn't mention fouls by B.

I'd rather have it right than simple.

takemeaway10 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2011, 09:17:41 PM »

Quote from: mbyron on August 25, 2011, 07:58:35 PM

Some guys in my association say this, but it doesn't work for me. IMO officials should use rule-book terms: basic spot, beyond or behind the basic spot, spot of the foul, etc. Plus your version doesn't mention fouls by B.

I'd rather have it right than simple.

Our association also says "What hurts the worst," and I don't care for it, either (because I've seen a situation where the enforcement spot wasn't the one that "hurt the worst."

Also, Holds are almost always enforced from the spot of the foul because it's almost always behind the basic spot. On a passing play (loose ball play), the basic spot is the previous spot and the hold usually happens before the QB makes a pass (behind the LOS). On a run (running play), the basic spot is the end of the run and the hold usually happens before the end of the run (which is pretty much how the runner was able to advance the ball that far). If you had a hold happen ten yards in front of the end of the run, it probably wouldn't be a hold. A hold ten yards in front of a pass is either OPI or nothing.

Correct me if I'm wrong.. has anyone ever seen Holding enforced at a spot other than the basic?

FBUmp · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2011, 09:44:32 PM »

The All But One is easy to remember if you just remember there are 4 types of fouls.

1- Fouls be the defense at or beyond the basic spot.
2- Fouls by the defense behind the basic spot.
3- Fouls be the offense at or beyond the basic spot.
4- Fouls by the offense behind the basic spot.

1, 2, and 3 are the ALL = penalized from the basic spot.
4 is the ONE = penalized from the spot of the foul.

takemeaway10 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2011, 10:01:55 PM »

Quote from: FBUmp on August 25, 2011, 09:44:32 PM

The All But One is easy to remember if you just remember there are 4 types of fouls.

1- Fouls be the defense at or beyond the basic spot.
2- Fouls by the defense behind the basic spot.
3- Fouls be the offense at or beyond the basic spot.
4- Fouls by the offense behind the basic spot.

1, 2, and 3 are the ALL = penalized from the basic spot.
4 is the ONE = penalized from the spot of the foul.

Personally, I think it's combining the All But One Principle with the concept of basic spots that gets so confusing. For a while, I had it in my mind that ABO referred to fouls that occurred behind or beyond the LOS.

mbyron · « **Reply #10 on:** August 26, 2011, 09:09:56 AM »

Quote from: FBUmp on August 25, 2011, 09:44:32 PM

The All But One is easy to remember if you just remember there are 4 types of fouls.

1- Fouls be the defense at or beyond the basic spot.
2- Fouls by the defense behind the basic spot.
3- Fouls be the offense at or beyond the basic spot.
4- Fouls by the offense behind the basic spot.

1, 2, and 3 are the ALL = penalized from the basic spot.
4 is the ONE = penalized from the spot of the foul.

I could swear I've heard this somewhere before....

Magician · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2011, 11:12:19 AM »

Quote from: TampaSteve on August 25, 2011, 01:33:34 PM

The way I try to remember ABO: "what's going to put A the worst-off" - it generally leads me doen the correct path.

I have a great example of where this isn't true and it happened in our game last week. 4th and 9 at the A36. A7 sacked for a 12 yard loss. BJ had flag for DH downfield. My first thought was enforce from the A36 and A gets a first down after enforcement. This would definitely "hurt B the worst". But since A never threw the ball or lost possession behind the NZ it's a running plan enforced from the basic spot. Next play is 4th and 11 from the A34.

I wish NFHS rules changed to basic spot for running plays that end behind the NZ as previous spot and enforcing most fouls that occur behind the NZ by A as previous spot fouls. But that's the college official coming out of me.

FBUmp · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2011, 05:30:43 PM »

Quote from: mbyron on August 26, 2011, 09:09:56 AM

I could swear I've heard this somewhere before....

Perhaps you have. I certainly didn't say I authored it but I explained it this ways for years and posted it on more than one discussion forum.

zebraken · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2011, 07:59:29 PM »

I have a great example of where this isn't true and it happened in our game last week. 4th and 9 at the A36. A7 sacked for a 12 yard loss. BJ had flag for DH downfield. My first thought was enforce from the A36 and A gets a first down after enforcement. This would definitely "hurt B the worst". But since A never threw the ball or lost possession behind the NZ it's a running plan enforced from the basic spot. Next play is 4th and 11 from the A34.

what the heck does this have to do with "whatever hurts A the worst" ? fouls on B are always enforced from the basic spot period

mbyron · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2011, 11:24:17 PM »

Quote from: FBUmp on August 26, 2011, 05:30:43 PM

Perhaps you have. I certainly didn't say I authored it but I explained it this ways for years and posted it on more than one discussion forum.

Well, I was actually thinking more of this very thread...say around reply #2.

KDJBBBJ · « **Reply #15 on:** August 29, 2011, 07:50:00 PM »

Also remember that the offense by definition is the team with the ball not always team "A". Holding on B after an interception behind the basic spot (end of the related run) is still marked off from the spot of the foul

mbyron · « **Reply #16 on:** August 29, 2011, 08:00:43 PM »

Quote from: KDJBBBJ on August 29, 2011, 07:50:00 PM

Also remember that the offense by definition is the team with the ball not always team "A". Holding on B after an interception behind the basic spot (end of the related run) is still marked off from the spot of the foul

Quite right: I need to fix my summary...

takemeaway10 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2011, 07:49:54 AM »

Quote from: mbyron on August 29, 2011, 08:00:43 PM

Quite right: I need to fix my summary...

For penalty recording purposes, the team that started with possession of the ball will continue to be A for the rest of the down, so your original explanation doesn't confuse me. Not to mention, our rules interpreter teaches us the exact same way.

mbyron · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2011, 07:51:53 AM »

Quote from: takemeaway10 on August 30, 2011, 07:49:54 AM

For penalty recording purposes, the team that started with possession of the ball will continue to be A for the rest of the down, so your original explanation doesn't confuse me. Not to mention, our rules interpreter teaches us the exact same way.

Expressing "all but one" in terms of A and B will be equivalent to using "offense" and "defense" until there's a change of possession. At that point, thinking in terms of A and B will lead you into error: after the COP, B is the offense, and fouls by B behind the basic spot will be enforced from the spot of the foul.

TampaSteve · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:45:08 AM »

Fellas, fellas. regarding above, I said 'generally'. - certainly not all the time. Man...

mbyron · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2011, 09:36:11 AM »

Fair enough. But isn't it worth remembering a few more words and getting it right every time?

TampaSteve · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2011, 09:52:39 AM »

Quote from: mbyron on August 30, 2011, 09:36:11 AM

Fair enough. But isn't it worth remembering a few more words and getting it right every time?

Agree 100%

Author Topic: Holding on a pass play, NFHS rules (Read 21506 times)

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