Author Topic: Helmet to Helmet ?  (Read 14536 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Helmet to Helmet ?
« on: August 26, 2011, 07:55:23 AM »
Okay boys, you make the call.  It has been alleged the crushing blindside block at the point of attack here was a helmet to helmet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-yhN5agdfQ

Offline bushman

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 08:10:48 AM »
Hi Mike,
Stay in TX. We have had earthquakes and now a hurricane coming to the Commonwealth.
Great play. I think from what we are being told, a hit like this should be called as it is close if not above the shoulders. Don't call it and you get flack and call it and get some flack. Want to hear from others on their thoughts.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 08:49:44 AM »
The angle at about 1:15 shows it best, no way Jose, that was a solid shoulder hit.

P.S. Love the black pants.  ;D

El Macman

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 08:55:04 AM »
There was no 'lead' with the helmet. There may have been contact between the helmets, but there was no intent to use the helmet to punish, and the helmet contact was strictly incidental/. It wasn't a complete blind-side, defenseless player situation. No foul.

Offline Dakota Dan

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 10:13:21 AM »
I got UNR-BTH (targeting) on White and I got UNR-HCT (horsecollar) on black ... offset and replay the down.  The hit by white kid when the black kid is in a vertical position is what the BCS supervisors want out of the game (the white kid had options where to block and chose to go climb the stairs and target high on his opponent).  Even when it is close, you will get a CC everytime...
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 10:21:19 AM by Dakota Dan »

El Macman

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 11:08:19 AM »
Not a horsecollar, either. There is no immediate pull down. There is a grab and an spin, with a forwad pull with both arms, and no buckling of the knees.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 11:43:50 AM »
Wow, did not realize there would be this level of disagreement.  First you tell the kid not to block low, then you tell him not to block a little high, you are really reducing the "strike zone" for him.  Good thing I am not in the  "bigs" cause I obviously would not be there long if I pass on this.  (You guys are giving TexDoc a big head though since he wants it flagged)

The "horsecollar" happened after the runner had already been declared out of bounds and it just looked like to me the players spun around with no immediate and direct pull down endangering the legs.

Diablo

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 12:03:19 PM »
Looks like a no-call to me.

On aside, that play is awful close to being a TB.  Note, the loose ball landed in the EZ before going OB.  It appears that the ball carrier looses control of the JUST after stepping OB. 
Was that a SA crew?  If so, did they consider a TB?
Close goallilne play like that, the B ought to be motionless while on the goalline.
GREAT video play.


Offline TXMike

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 12:16:31 PM »
The L was confident the runner stepped out before losing possession.  The B was not moving much until after he saw the L had ruled the play had ended and even then B was just going to get to the pile of players out of bounds as there had been several dead ball "nastiness" issues during the game.   This particular B will move "easily" along the goal line towards the pylon on plays like this to be in a better position to try to coordinate with the L (5 man crew) on pylon/goal line related events. 

(And it was a SA crew)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:35:37 PM by TXMike »

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 12:24:49 PM »
Watching the game live, I was screaming for a call on the block.  But, you know how it is with a 2D picture of what happened.  The blocker's helmet strikes the defender's helmet, no doubt, but it seems it may have been simultaneous with their shoulders colliding.  I would have no problem with this being called.  The blocker was definitely defenseless and certainly was in jeopard of being injured.  But, is that enough? 

Grant - AR

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 12:28:12 PM »
The blocker didn't lead with his helmet.  He didn't go up high and hit with his forearm or shoulder to the helmet. I think I let this play go.

Now to the real question...how do the supervisors want this play called?  ;D

Offline TXMike

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 12:37:22 PM »
Watching the game live, I was screaming for a call on the block.  But, you know how it is with a 2D picture of what happened.  The blocker's helmet strikes the defender's helmet, no doubt, but it seems it may have been simultaneous with their shoulders colliding.  I would have no problem with this being called.  The blocker was definitely defenseless and certainly was in jeopard of being injured.  But, is that enough?

Sorry, no way is a defender who is pursuing a runner ever defenseless in my book  (although based on CFO video 2, play 8 he cleasrly may be in someone else's)

El Macman

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 02:47:19 PM »
TxMike, there are differences between the CFO play and the HS play.

1) In the CFO play, the play develops over a significant period of time, in which the blocker can be seen deliberately taking a track that keeps him behind the defenders' peripheral vision, concealing himself and stalking the defender, until the last possible instant, for the purpose of maximizing the 'ambush,' and the amount of punishment he can deliver without the defender being able to offer any counter-resistance. The defender never saw the blocker coming at all. In the HS play, the direction of the play changes quickly, and the blocker takes a path that keeps himslef in front of the defender, within of the defender's peripheral vision. The defender's vision is clearly focused straight ahead and he does not see the blocker until the last moment before the collision - but he does see him, even though he doesn't have time to brace himself significantly. The blocker didn't conceal himself and stalk the prey as in the CFO play.

2) In the CFO play, the blocker clearly leads with his helmet, for the express purpose of making contact with his helmet on the defender, to inflcit as much punishment as possible. Not only does he make deliberate contact on the defender WITH his helmet, he makes that contact ON the defender's helmet, as well as body-to-body contact. RR uses the term 'launch' to describe the blocker's action. It isn't the classic, full-fledged superman launch that we may envision with that term, but the blocker clearly throws himself on the defender head-first, with the clear intent of maximizing the punishment factor of his block, and not to just offer support for the ball-carrier. He could have been just as effective at supporting the ball-carrier by just getting in the defender's way, with no contact at all.
In the HS play, the blocker definitely moves into the defender's path and leans toward the defender, contacting him in the chest with his shoulder. His head isn't detachable, so it moves with his shoulders. There probably is some incidental helmet-to-helmet contact, but it isn't deliberate, and it isn't with intent to punish. He didn't move into the defender head-first - rather, it was whole body-first, and, since they were both about the same height, and bodies do contort with contact, the helmets came together. That's why they wear helmets - for the incidental contact with knees, elbows, and, yes, other heads.

No foul.

The BC clearly steps out of bounds before he loses possession, so this is just a BC out of bounds. But, it is a great training play for the purpose of teaching folks to be patient, let the play happen, process, and coordinate with your co-official(s) before making a final ruling, and then get it right. Which they did. But, the B might want to make sure there is nothing else to deal with regarding the result of the play and/or separating players before he chases the ball. Perhaps a little hasty on this play. That's what ball persons are for (aren't they?).

Offline TXMike

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 03:01:35 PM »
The B was actually going to where the BC and 2 defenders had gone down in a heap so he could keep the peace.  The fact that he was able to also quickly recover the ball was coincidental and a tribute to his ability to multi-task.

As for the hit, the B passed on it so I am going with his take.

El Macman

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2011, 03:11:01 PM »
The B was actually going to where the BC and 2 defenders had gone down in a heap so he could keep the peace.  The fact that he was able to also quickly recover the ball was coincidental and a tribute to his ability to multi-task.


Stick to that story....  8]

Diablo

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2011, 03:11:31 PM »
The B was not moving much until after he saw the L had ruled the play had ended and even then B was just going to get to the pile of players out of bounds as there had been several dead ball "nastiness" issues during the game.   This particular B will move "easily" along the goal line towards the pylon on plays like this to be in a better position to try to coordinate with the L (5 man crew) on pylon/goal line related events. 

It's easier to see the hard-to-see details if the B's head (eyes) is still.  A moving head distorts focus.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 03:14:31 PM »
This particular B has a long and storied history as a quarter-miler up in New England and received intensive training on how to run without his head moving.  Watch the great quarter milers and you will see what I mean. 

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 03:25:14 PM »
Good block, no call.  Did anyone even see the block upon discussing in the locker room?

Best regards,

Brad

Offline TXMike

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2011, 03:35:55 PM »
The only one who saw it was your former white hat and he was watching from his Lazy Boy.  Nobody else even realized it had happened until saw the video.  I assume the crew saw it as just another in a line of big hits made during the game.

110

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 08:27:19 PM »
Nuttin', hunny.

Offline mccormicw

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Re: Helmet to Helmet ?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2011, 04:25:29 PM »
As for the hit, the B passed on it so I am going with his take.

Way to support someone else.... LOL