Case Book question

[KirbyB]

Here is the casebook reference

*4.2.3 SITUATION F: A1 is in scrimmage kick formation with his back heel near
the end line in the end zone. On a high snap, the potential kicker jumps and is able
to keep the ball from going out of the end zone. It falls to the ground and is rolling
around 5 yards into the end zone. In a panic, A1 then kicks the ball off the ground
and it rolls to the A25 and is bounding around when there is an inadvertent whistle.
The ball rolls dead at the A27. RULING: B has a choice of accepting the penalty
for an illegal kick, which if accepted, results in a safety against A. If the penalty
is declined, the inadvertent whistle rule allows for B to ask for a replay of the
down since the ball was not in player possession at the time of the whistle.

Doesn't A (K really) get the choice of replaying the down since the ball is in possession of the team that last had possession and B (R) has not secured possession at the time of the inadvertent whistle, if the penalty is declined?

Rule 4.2.3 B
The team last in possession may choose to either put the ball in play where
possession was lost or replay the down if, during a down or during a down
in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded
while the ball is loose following a backward pass, fumble, illegal forward
pass or illegal kick.

[mark in ok]

...or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined

If R refuses the penalty, A gets those choices.

[Curious]

WOW Kirby! What timing...(are you in Michigan?)

I'm having the same BIG issue with what appears to be a conflict between the Rule and Case Books - assuming the penalty is declined (which is pretty remote).  But I agree that it should be A's choice.

Some other interesting issues/questions:

1. Since this is an illegal kick, treated as a fumble, was team possesion ever really lost?  For that matter who actually was the last PLAYER in possession DURING this down.  Since a down starts on a snap, and the kicker never "possessed" the snap, it seems nobody was; but a fumble remains in possession of the fumbling team until there is a COP or the play is blown dead.

2. Now, if team possession WAS lost, where was it lost?  At the snap; where it was muffed; where it was illegally kicked; or when the loose ball was blown dead?  This would have an impact on from where the down would be replayed.

3. If there had been no IW on this play, could A have advanced the illegal kick/fumble?  (I'll bet somebody would be blowing a whistle if A did; and would that be an IW?).  If they reached the line to gain, could it be a first down? 

4. What if this were the last play 1) of the second quarter; or 2) of the game?  Since an accepted penalty would result in a safety, the second period would not be extended; but at the end of the game, it could be.

Again, if this is only an error in the Case Book (and the play has been there since at least 2007), there still, at least, is a question regarding from where the ball would next be snapped if the penalty was declined.

 

[FBUmp]

Doesn't A (K really) get the choice of replaying the down since the ball is in possession of the team that last had possession and B (R) has not secured possession at the time of the inadvertent whistle, if the penalty is declined?

A is not K because the ball is not legally kicked.  That's why there's an asterisk beside the play, indicating the play has been changed since last year.

[Curious]

So what if it's A or K?

It's not K because it's not a legal kick; but the real issue is whether the Case Book or Rule book is incorrect.

[FBUmp]

So what if it's A or K?

It's not K because it's not a legal kick; but the real issue is whether the Case Book or Rule book is incorrect.

Simply pointing out why it's A and not K.  No need to get pissy.

As for the play, the rule is the rule.  If a case play is contrary to the rule book, the case play is incorrect.

That would seem to be the situation here.

[KirbyB]

Thanks for the clarification on A vs K.  I am a relatively new official so that helps.  What I take away is A doesn't become K until there is a legal kick.

[mbyron]

I agree that the last sentence of the case contains an error: A would have the choice, not B.

Not that A would be likely to exercise that choice, since B would almost always accept the penalty and the resulting safety.

[Curious]

Simply pointing out why it's A and not K.  No need to get pissy.

As for the play, the rule is the rule.  If a case play is contrary to the rule book, the case play is incorrect.

That would seem to be the situation here.

Sorry UMP, didn't mean to be "pissy"; just would like some thoughts/answers form anybody regarding the other questions I asked about the case book play.

Is there a NFHS edict somewhere that says if the two books are in conflict, use the rule book?  I looked but could not find......

[FBUmp]

Sorry UMP, didn't mean to be "pissy"; just would like some thoughts/answers form anybody regarding the other questions I asked about the case book play.

Is there a NFHS edict somewhere that says if the two books are in conflict, use the rule book?  I looked but could not find......

My reply regarding a and K was to the original poster, which is why I quoted him.

The rule book is the Bible.  The Case Book is a supplement to the Rule Book.

[Magician]

Another way to look at this is A/K really doesn't have any options if the penalty is declined.  The ball will be put in play at the previous spot and the down either replayed or the down counted (put the ball in play where possession was lost).  They would never take the latter over the former.

So the choices essentially are with B/R.  Accept the foul and the result is a safety.  Decline the foul and it will be a replay of the down.  The case book could be worded better but the result is still the same.