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Offline TXMike

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Uns Conduct ? (video)
« on: November 16, 2011, 08:33:42 AM »
Does the player scoring commit an act of uns conduct?  Also, take a look at the RB who was in motion and took a fake handoff.  Has he fouled?  If so, who would catch this in a 5 man crew?
  7 man crew?


http://youtu.be/BP2hdVYgxCg
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 09:04:13 AM »
The UNS is a judgment call - not flagrant IMO, but depending on your supervisor, maybe a flag.

The low block is definitely a foul.  RB is restricted to blocking below toward his adjacent sideline, and that's in the other direction.

In a 5 man game this has got to be the official who has coverage of the wing at the snap, or could be the wing official who picks up coverage of a man in motion.

In 7-man (not my strong point), I would think that it's the official who has the original coverage responsibility.
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Offline clearwall

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 09:09:13 AM »
That's B's key, correct? Two eligible receivers to the right side, B has inside receiver. R might also have seen it too.

As far as the UNS, i've got nothing there.
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mbyron

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 01:01:33 PM »
Why couldn't the R flag this? He's looking right through it.
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LJ10

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 03:53:18 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 16, 2011, 09:04:13 AM
The low block is definitely a foul.  RB is restricted to blocking below toward his adjacent sideline, and that's in the other direction.

Per the pre-season memo "BBW-Adjacent Sideline," this block by the motion player is illegal by definition: "For a player who is moving at the snap, the adjacent sideline is determined the same as for a player who is stationary at the snap. That is, it is the sideline to the outside of his position at the snap..." 

But should it be illegal?   The block was not "north-south" but was straight on, did not "blindside" the blockee in typical "crack back block" fashion, and the blockee could see the block coming.  Using last season's rule, a player in motion could legally block low away from the original position of the ball, as was the case here, and would have been legal. 

(Fix spelling)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 03:57:03 PM by LJ10 »
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 04:14:57 PM »
Quote from: LJ10 on November 16, 2011, 03:53:18 PM
Per the pre-season memo "BBW-Adjacent Sideline," this block by the motion player is illegal by definition: "For a player who is moving at the snap, the adjacent sideline is determined the same as for a player who is stationary at the snap. That is, it is the sideline to the outside of his position at the snap..." 

But should it be illegal?   The block was not "north-south" but was straight on, did not "blindside" the blockee in typical "crack back block" fashion, and the blockee could see the block coming.  Using last season's rule, a player in motion could legally block low away from the original position of the ball, as was the case here, and would have been legal. 

(Fix spelling)

What's that have to do with anything?????  By the current rules this is a foul.  No judgment required.
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Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 04:54:47 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 16, 2011, 04:14:57 PM
What's that have to do with anything?????  By the current rules this is a foul.  No judgment required.

Because, while the block is a foul by the letter of the rule, it doesn't appear to resemble in any way the kind of block that the rule is aimed at.
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Offline mishatx

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 05:04:41 PM »
It doesn't resemble the kind of block the old rule was aimed at.

The new rule is that all blocking below the waist is illegal.  Well, except for these few situations to allow everyone to transition.  This is not one of those exceptions.
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LJ10

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 05:13:56 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 16, 2011, 04:14:57 PM
What's that have to do with anything?????  By the current rules this is a foul.  No judgment required.
I'm just questioning why the rule was changed to deem this block illegal, and whether the rule change was good, necessary, or consistent.  For years and years this low block was legal regardless who delivered it as it was not the classic blindside "crack back" block   Even with the rule change, if this same low block was delivered by a "non-restricted" lineman or back, it would still be legal.  If this low block by the motion player is deemed to be illegal for safety issues, than shouldn't similar blocks delivered by lineman or backs also be illegal?  But if a similar block as delivered by a "non-restricted" lineman or back is not deemed to be a safety issue, than why should it be illegal if the same low block is delivered by a motion player?
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 05:45:11 PM »
Quote from: LJ10 on November 16, 2011, 05:13:56 PM
Even with the rule change, if this same low block was delivered by a "non-restricted" lineman or back, it would still be legal.  If this low block by the motion player is deemed to be illegal for safety issues, than shouldn't similar blocks delivered by lineman or backs also be illegal?  But if a similar block as delivered by a "non-restricted" lineman or back is not deemed to be a safety issue, than why should it be illegal if the same low block is delivered by a motion player?

How does a "non-restricted" lineman or back deliver this block, after the D-linemen have passed any A player who can legally deliver the block?  If the player is between the linemen and the ball carrier at the snap, then yes they can see them - in this case they have a 100% right under the rules to be protected from a low block by the back in motion, especially after they have been "let in" and gone by the last player who can legally block them low.  IMO this kind of play is intentional, and is probably in the playbook - it's time for it to go away based on the current rules.
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LJ10

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 09:52:50 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 16, 2011, 05:45:11 PM
How does a "non-restricted" lineman or back deliver this block, after the D-linemen have passed any A player who can legally deliver the block? 
A pulling "non-restricted" right tackle or lead back, couldn't deliver this same low block?  I believe they could and do.  Same block as thrown by the motion player but legal.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 05:24:44 AM »
Same game...this was flagged

http://youtu.be/-p6L5A4ePLg
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Offline Reverend30

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 05:57:47 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 17, 2011, 05:24:44 AM
Same game...this was flagged

http://youtu.be/-p6L5A4ePLg

The crew was certainly consistent - if one of the plays merited a flag, then the other did as well.

My question to the players would be, after the first UNS was called, regardless of which team it was called on, why would you then commit virtually the same act later in the game?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 06:00:08 AM »
To be clear, video 1 - no flag, video 2 - flag
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 06:11:31 AM »
For discussion I'll assume that the 2nd video is later in the game and IMO the 2nd action, a bit earlier and with a bit of a high step could be considered more egregious.  Also, good chance that the crew warned both teams after the first play to knock off the action(s) that aren't needed to play the game - when it got repeated it got the flag.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2011, 06:22:57 AM »
Quote from: LJ10 on November 16, 2011, 09:52:50 PM
A pulling "non-restricted" right tackle or lead back, couldn't deliver this same low block?  I believe they could and do.  Same block as thrown by the motion player but legal.

I disagree that it's the "same block".  This play reads run right and the QB fakes the handoff to the motion back with both rushers coming through the backside hole vacated by the guard who is pulling the other way along with the majority of motion on the play.  The block here is against the flow of the play on the backside and IMO is as close to the old "crack back" as you can get.  More to the point, by this year's rules it is simply illegal and a foul - no discussion needed.
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Offline Reverend30

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2011, 08:49:06 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 17, 2011, 06:00:08 AM
To be clear, video 1 - no flag, video 2 - flag

My mistake.  I stand corrected with regards to the consistency.
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Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2011, 11:39:22 AM »
Quote from: clearwall on November 16, 2011, 09:09:13 AM
That's B's key, correct?

Team A players in motion would always fall on the LOS guys.  Although the team A player has not crossed the center, I believe that the LOS wing towards where the block is ocurring needs to pick this up.
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2011, 05:27:53 PM »
What is unsportsmanlike about either videos....nothing.  We need to get a life.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2011, 09:27:32 PM »
Quote from: SATCFI on November 17, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
What is unsportsmanlike about either videos....nothing.  We need to get a life.

The life we have is given to us by our assigning commissioners, and what they tell us is unsportsmanlike is what we will flag as unsportsmanlike - nothing more, nothing less.  And if we get it wrong, you can be sure that we'll know about it by Monday morning, maybe even earlier.
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Offline allen

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 01:51:09 PM »
As far as "unsportsmanlike",  no way.
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Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2011, 02:41:39 PM »
in 5-man since L didn't have anyone going long, it seems either  L or perhaps U could see BBW.
7-man even moreso the L but U could too.
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Offline James

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 06:45:23 AM »
Re mechanics - I'm with Sonofanump
I am under the impression that the LM/LJ has the man in motion as a key
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chymechowder

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Re: Uns Conduct ? (video)
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2011, 11:44:26 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 17, 2011, 09:27:32 PM
The life we have is given to us by our assigning commissioners, and what they tell us is unsportsmanlike is what we will flag as unsportsmanlike - nothing more, nothing less.  And if we get it wrong, you can be sure that we'll know about it by Monday morning, maybe even earlier.

true. which makes me glad I don't work for a crazy person who wants something like this flagged for UNS.
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