Video Mich-Nebraska game

[TxJim]

Possible good discussion for training.  9:28 or so 1st qtr, long pass by UM, contact then caught by A at about B-10, no call.  Appears Team A receiver contact caused a seperation and defender to fall. Any thoughts on possible OPI?  Why or why not?

[boydmarq]

Same play... how does an experienced Big 10 referee not know that you tack on for a personal foul on the defense?  I've seen this joker Lipski a number of times this season and wonder when he is going to get sacked.

[El Macman]

...not know that you tack on for a personal foul on the defense?

Please explain the play.

[TXMike]

The box score does not help much. Not sure what happened.  (But penalty enforcement reflects on entire crew not just the R, even if there was an incorrect one)

3-8 Mich 49 Robinson, D. pass complete to Roundtree, Roy for 46 yards to the NEB5, 1ST DOWN MICH. P3
1-G NEB 05 PENALTY NEB personal foul (Meredith, C.) 3 yards to the NEB2, 1ST DOWN MICH. X4
1-G NEB 02 PENALTY MICH delay of game 5 yards to the NEB7.
1-G NEB 07 Robinson, D. rush for 1 yard to the NEB6 (Dennard, A.).
2-G NEB 06 Robinson, D. pass complete to Gallon, Jeremy for 6 yards to the NEB0, TOUCHDOWN, clock
08:17.
1-G NEB 03 Gibbons, B. kick attempt good.

[NVFOA_Ump]

So according to the box score they apparently did in fact tack-on the PF enforcement?  Maybe Atlanta Blue can help here with the way the spots and yard lines are recorded but it looks like the dead ball spot was probably just inside the 5, the PF enforcement was then 1/2 the distance to the goal line, and the new spot was just outside the 2.  What, if anything, is wrong with that?

[Atlanta Blue]

I didn't see the game, but the way this was recorded, the PF was a dead ball foul after the play.  The play went to the 5 and was the 3rd 1st down Mich had by passing (thus the P3).  Then a PF penalty was marked off half the distance.  Since the ball would be on the 2.5, that's considered the 2 yard line.  It was the 4th 1st down by penalty (X4).

In any case, it looks like this was not recorded correctly.  If the foul occured on the play, it should not have it's own line in the box score, the penalty should have been part of the 3rd down play.  If it was a deadball foul, it should have said, "Deadball foul, PENALTY, NEB Personal Foul (Meridith, C)".  These were marked as separate "plays", not part of the same play.

[boydmarq]

What happened was Lipski announced that the penalty was declined and the result of the play stood.  A few moments later, several of his crewmates bailed him out and they huddled.  Following the discussion, Lipski announced that he had incorrectly administered the penalty and that there would be a tack on.

[Atlanta Blue]

What happened was Lipski announced that the penalty was declined and the result of the play stood.  A few moments later, several of his crewmates bailed him out and they huddled.  Following the discussion, Lipski announced that he had incorrectly administered the penalty and that there would be a tack on.

So it sounds like the foul was a live ball foul.  It also explains why the foul was entered as a separate event in the box score.  Technically, the scorer should have edited the play and added the foul as part of the play.  But that would have meant he would have had to have understood why the correction was being made on the field as it was. and editing a previous play takes a little bit of time.  In the interest of "keeping it simple", he just added it as a separate event.

Problem is, he just gave Michigan an extra first down.  Had the penalty been added as a live ball foul, only one first down would have been earned.  By recording it as a separte event, two first downs were credited.  I understand why the mistake happened, but it is an error in the number of first downs.  It is also the reason why the Official Scorer needs to be well versed in the rules.

[TXMike]

What exactly was the foul and when did it occur? The down started with a pass play.  In many cases that would mean the enforcement would be previous spot if accepted.  Since A gained so many yards they would have declined.

[RicFlairWoo]

The R's first announcement was correct. The PF/HTF occurred during a passing play and not a related run.  The enforcement is from the previous spot.  Penalty declined and result of play accepted.  Only after conferring with crew, was the penalty enforced incorrectly.

[TXMike]

Same play... how does an experienced Big 10 referee not know that you tack on for a personal foul on the defense?  I've seen this joker Lipski a number of times this season and wonder when he is going to get sacked.

So is it okay if we keep the "joker" and discard his gang?   

[El Macman]

Still not sure what happened, but I really don't care. I just wanted to get some sort of undersrtanding of the play, because, to make the blanket statement, "...that you tack on for a personal foul on the defense..." is incorrect as a statement, if not irresponsible. Personal fouls follow basic spot enforcement rules, with the basic spot varying, dependent upon the play type, end of the related run, etc. If this foul occurred during a play before a legal forward pass was completed, then, if accepted, it would be enforced from the previous spot - not 'tacked on.' If it occurred during a scrimmage play prior to a fumble, it would be enforced according to the application of the 3 and 1 principle at the basic spot. For a Team B foul, that would be the previous spot, or the end of the related run, which might not be the dead-ball spot. Depending on the result of the play, it might be declined altogether. But, it definitely doesn't just automatically, "...tack on..."

Perhaps they got it right, after all.

[Atlanta Blue]

Perhaps they got it right, after all.

The more I read, it sounds like they had it right, and changed it to something wrong.

[WCFB]

My first time posting to youtube. I had some trouble cutting the clip out of the recording which is why it took awhile to get it posted. Txmike, what program do you use to capture the games and what software do you use to edit?

I didnt do any fancy slow motion replay... i couldnt figure out how to do that yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C4ldseCC0M

[TXMike]

i use Corel Video Studio to edit the videos which I record onto a DVD writer from my satellite dish DVR. 

[WCFB]

Thanks i will take a look at Corel 

[BC70]

Back to the original post do you think it was OPI?  It looked like the receiver gained an advantage by his action...looks like an OPI.  It looks like the R was correct the first time if the foul occurred during the pass.  BTW that joker must be competent enough to work a high profile game late in the season between two ranked teams.

[Etref]

I have to disagree. I think the F made a good no call. Not enough to call OPI.


As for the enforcement.................

[NVFOA_Ump]

The R's first announcement was correct. The PF/HTF occurred during a passing play and not a related run.  The enforcement is from the previous spot.  Penalty declined and result of play accepted.  Only after conferring with crew, was the penalty enforced incorrectly.

The remaining question as noted is when did the foul actually occur?   After conferring with the crew the R made a clear announcement that the penalty would be tacked on to the end of the run, which at least implies that the calling official ruled that the penalty had occurred after the catch and during the discussion clarified that fact with the R.

As to the OPI possibility, IMO this was a good non-call.

[TxSkyBolt]

I'd think it would be a stretch to think the U knew that the pass was complete when the foul ocurred. In my experience, this type of foul is usually seen during the initial rush. After pass is gone, U is yelling at the playets that the ball is gone.


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[El Macman]

I don't believe the U made this call - I believe the R did. The U turns to look downfield after the pass is thrown, and isn't even thinking about throwing a flag on the continuous helmet contact by B34. The R's flag cannot be seen on his belt when he makes the initial announcement, but it is there on the 'correction' announcement, and the foul action was right in his view. So, I'm certain the R made the call. The foul definitely happened during the pass play portion of the down. I'll leave the rest to y'all. If an error was made, just know that they aren't the first crew of good people to make an error, and they won't be the last.

[Kalle]

As we don't know what the crew discussed, we can't really use this as a learning situation. But, for the deep officials, any time there's a catch followed by the runner immediately being down (like in this play), and you hear the words "from the end of the run" from the referee, do go to him and ask if he's really really serious. I don't see how any foul at the line of scrimmage could happen during that one second it took for the pass being complete and the runner being down.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Couldn't view the video earlier and just managed a workaround to see it.  I agree with El Macman's post that it was the R's flag and the foul occurred fairly early in the play - before the pass.

[WCFB]

I don't believe the U made this call - I believe the R did. The U turns to look downfield after the pass is thrown, and isn't even thinking about throwing a flag on the continuous helmet contact by B34. The R's flag cannot be seen on his belt when he makes the initial announcement, but it is there on the 'correction' announcement, and the foul action was right in his view. So, I'm certain the R made the call. The foul definitely happened during the pass play portion of the down. I'll leave the rest to y'all. If an error was made, just know that they aren't the first crew of good people to make an error, and they won't be the last.

I think the R & U made this call... The U walks behind the R at 00:35.2 and has a flag in his right and left hand. His flag is also not tucked into his normal spot. You can see where he keeps his flag in the huddle.

[El Macman]

I think the R & U made this call... The U walks behind the R at 00:35.2 and has a flag in his right and left hand. His flag is also not tucked into his normal spot. You can see where he keeps his flag in the huddle.

Good eyes. Concur. Looks like both were down on that.