tack on penalty for scrimmage kicks

[zebra99]

here's one that just came up hopefully answered officially in writing somewhere?

Both scenarios - 4th down and A is in an illegal formation:

1.  A punts and the ball is downed by A 40 yards down field.

2.  A punts and the kick is blocked and A downs it behind the line.

B's enforcement options any different in these two plays?

[clearwall]

5 yards, previous spot is the only enforcement I can think of.

[TxSkyBolt]

Fouls by Team A During Kicks
ARTICLE 4. Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team other than kick-catch
interference (Rule 6-4) during a free kick play or a scrimmage kick play (except
field goal attempts) are enforced either at the previous spot or at the spot where
the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B. (Rules
6-1-8 and 6-3-13)

5 yards beyond the dead ball spot (in your example) doesn't matter if behind or beyond NZ....or 5 yards from previous spot, repeat the down.

What am I missing?

[zebra99]

The others side of the argument is that a blocked kicked recovered behind the line "belongs" to A and B only gets it because A didn't make the line to gain.  Thus, no tack on option.

At least that's what one of Rom Gilbert's postings says.

Can anyone dig up an officials bulletin.  It's just that I don't recall a distinction being made when the tack on rule first came out in 2007 - but my memory only goes back to last week!

[Welpe]

We've been rounds on this on another forum based upon Rom's missive. Most were in favor of a tack on in both situations, including myself, but Rom says you can only tack on the first scenario.

I started digging through bulletins when this came up but haven't been able to find anything.

[TxSkyBolt]

I don't how Ron can read that into the rule.  Seems crystal clear to me....this is by definition a scrimmage kick that belongs to B when the down is over.  Seems very uncontroversial. 

[JasonTX]

I don't how Ron can read that into the rule.  Seems crystal clear to me....this is by definition a scrimmage kick that belongs to B when the down is over.  Seems very uncontroversial.

I agree.  We also have a definition of "Belongs to" in rule 2. 

[zebra99]

Well, since the rule came into the book in 2007 I've been tacking on A fouls in both situations.  One thing I've learned over time is if there is a distinction with different outcomes, usually there is a lot of chatter and discussion when the new rule comes out and we receive a definitive answer from the rules editor.

I went through all my notes and bulletins and could not find anything which leads me to believe there was any issue until Rom's thoughts.

I will continue with no difference in the enforcement until I get something official that states otherwise.

PS:  read 2-4-2 a few times if you can't sleep! 

[Kalle]

Remember that "belongs to" denotes a temporary custody of the dead ball at the very instant it becomes dead. In the second scenario here the ball is in possession of team A so it "belongs to" team A, even though it will be turned over to team B due to rule. I don't see any problem here. For those not on Rom's mailing list (do get on it), here's Rom's explanation on this issue - if you tack on on the second case would you not tack on if team B fumbles on the A-5 and the ball goes out of bounds in the team A end zone?

"The ball  'belongs to' the team last in possession when the down ends unless a rule states otherwise.  There may be exceptions lurking in the rule book but this works for me.  Rule 6-3-7 indicates that a scrimmage kick that goes out of bounds between the goal lines 'belongs to' Team B.   However, Team A was in possession when the ball became dead.  Thus, tack-on penalty enforcement (10-2-4) applies since the ball 'belongs to' Team B by rule.  In Rule 10-2-3-b-5, post-scrimmage kick enforcement applies when Team B next puts the ball in play.  If a Team B ball carrier returns a punt and fumbles from the field of play into and out of A's end zone, the ball 'belongs to' Team B since Team B was last in possession.  However, Team A and not Team B next puts the ball in play.  This rule was changed a few years ago."

[Welpe]

Clear as mud. 

Kalle, how do you get on his mailing list? I checked his main site but didn't see a signup.

[zebra99]

Kalle - good analysis but I really don't think having a different enforcement spot for B depending on whether the kick ends beyond or behind is the intent of the tack on rule.

Suppose the kick is blocked and B falls on it behind the line.  Not a huge difference between this play and A falling on it behind the line on 4th down to justify a potentially huge difference in enforcement.

[Kalle]

Kalle - good analysis but I really don't think having a different enforcement spot for B depending on whether the kick ends beyond or behind is the intent of the tack on rule.

Suppose the kick is blocked and B falls on it behind the line.  Not a huge difference between this play and A falling on it behind the line on 4th down to justify a potentially huge difference in enforcement.

What if team A kicks on a third down? Do you give the ball to team B and tack on? Why should the down number make a difference?

Also, if you're saying that the penalty qualifies for a tack on, you should not tack on in this case: 4th and 10 on A-20. A8 legally punts the ball. B40 catches the punt on A-50 and advances to A-2, where he fumbles. The fumble goes out of bounds behind the team A goal line. Team A was in illegal formation at the snap.

[Kalle]

Kalle, how do you get on his mailing list? I checked his main site but didn't see a signup.

Send him an email asking to get on the list.

[zebra99]

3rd down is easy - no tack on because the ball doesn't belong to B at the dead ball spot.

your second example?  I agree - isn't that a TB?  Same as the 3rd down example - we don't tack on because the dead ball doesn't belong to B.

I heard this rule of thumb when the tack on came out 5 years ago - "who's going to next snap the ball?"  I realize that's not in the rule book but many rules of thumb aren't.

This isn't a debate as to who is right or wrong - there are reasonable arguments for both sides.  We can agree to disagree.  Once again I care not who's opinion eventually carries the day if we would just get the answer from the ultimate authority - how many times have I said that over the years!

 

[Diablo]

What if team A kicks on a third down? Do you give the ball to team B and tack on? Why should the down number make a difference?

A result of Team A recovering a blocked fourth down punt behind the neutral zone is that Team A did not make the line to gain.  Then, 5-1-1-c kicks in and a new series is awarded to Team B.  Isn't that identical to Team A's untouched punt landing in B's end zone, i.e. touchback - the ball is awarded ("belongs to") Team B?

Recovering a third down punt behind the NZ does not activate 5-1-1-c.

[Kalle]

A result of Team A recovering a blocked fourth down punt behind the neutral zone is that Team A did not make the line to gain.  Then, 5-1-1-c kicks in and a new series is awarded to Team B.  Isn't that identical to Team A's untouched punt landing in B's end zone, i.e. touchback - the ball is awarded ("belongs to") Team B?

It's not identical, as in the touchback case, the rule is very explicit that the ball belongs to team B. See rule 6-3-9.

As I understand it, a dead ball may first "belong to" one team and then "be awarded to" the other team, with the ball then "belonging to" that team. But, in that case, at the end of the down, the ball does "belong to" the first team, not the second, for any other rules purposes.

[Kalle]

your second example?  I agree - isn't that a TB?  Same as the 3rd down example - we don't tack on because the dead ball doesn't belong to B.

Good, at least we both are consistent in our rulings (I would tack on as the dead ball does not belong to team A until it is awarded to them via rule 7-2-4-c)

This isn't a debate as to who is right or wrong - there are reasonable arguments for both sides.  We can agree to disagree.  Once again I care not who's opinion eventually carries the day if we would just get the answer from the ultimate authority - how many times have I said that over the years!

Fully agree with you here. This is not a safety-related rule, so there is no "absolutely" right answer, except for what the rules writers say.

I wish this would be an A.R. instead of one of the blatantly obvious ones...

[Diablo]

It's not identical, as in the touchback case, the rule is very explicit that the ball belongs to team B. See rule 6-3-9.

Hmmm.  It appears the presence of "belongs to" in a rule passage is required for tack on penalty enforcement.

Take a look at 6-3-6-b, "When opposing players, each eligible to touch the ball, simultaneously recover a rolling kick or catch a scrimmage kick, the simultaneous possession makes the ball dead.  A kick declared dead joint in possession of opposing players is awarded to the receiving team (Rules 2-4-4 and 4-1-3-l)."  Note, that passage reads very similar to 6-3-6-a, 6-3-7, 6-3-8, & 6-3-9.  Except "belongs to" does not appear in 6-3-6-b, but "awarded" does.

What if Team A was in an illegal formation and the kick ended in simultaneous possession?  Tack on or not?

[Kalle]

What if Team A was in an illegal formation and the kick ended in simultaneous possession?  Tack on or not?

The literally inclined me wants to say "no tack on" but my reading of the intent of the rule says to tack on.

Note that the rules for a simultaneous possession of a pass or a fumble say "belongs to", so I claim that the kick version is a typo. Rules 7-2-2-b and 7-3-6.

[pedja]

I've received RR's rulings for following situations:

1. 4th and 10 on A-20. A8 legally punts the ball. B40 catches the punt on A-50 and advances to A-2, where he fumbles. The fumble goes out of bounds behind the team A goal line. Team A was in illegal formation at the snap.

2. 4th and 10 on A-45. A8 legally punts the ball. B40 catches the punt on B-3 and returns to Team B's end zone (no momentum), where he is downed. Team A was in illegal formation at the snap.

3. 4th and 10 on A-45. A8 legally punts the ball, but the punt is blocked by B96. A8 recovers the ball on A-30 (behind the line of scrimmage). Team A was in illegal formation at the snap.

Rulings:

1.  The result of the play is a touchback, so Team B will not put the ball in play next.  If they accept the penalty it can only be enforced at the previous spot and the down replayed.  They clearly will want to do this.

2.  The result of the play is a safety, and Team B would next put the ball in play by a free kick at the B-20.  They could have the penalty enforced at that spot, and kick from the B-25, but of course they will want to have it enforced at the previous spot with the down replayed.

3.  Team B will next put the ball in play at the A-30, so they will want the penalty tacked on at that point.
 

[El Macman]

Good work. Thanks for sharing.

[Atlanta Blue]

3.  Team B will next put the ball in play at the A-30, so they will want the penalty tacked on at that point.

So RR is equating "will next put the ball in play" with "belongs to".  I asked if those two were the same thing on this or another board and was told no!

[TXMike]

They did not used to be the same but apparently they are now

[zebra99]

how about we get rid of one or the other   

[Atlanta Blue]

They did not used to be the same but apparently they are now

Is there any wonder coaches give up on the rules?!?!?!?