Author Topic: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO  (Read 24888 times)

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Offline sj

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2012, 03:24:55 PM »
What we are saying is that section of the book means he is touching ground outside the boundary line.  If it were to be read the way you are suggesting, then when a ball carrier is running along the sideline , if he ever had an arm outside the line whil eboth feet owere off the ground, he would be out of bounds.  That is not the intent of that section

That makes sense. Thanks.

El Macman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2012, 03:32:49 PM »
So if he's inbounds then he must've returned from out of bounds??

Uh, no compehendo, senor.

The player that batted the ball was airborne at the time he batted the ball. An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds. The only applicable rule was that he wasn't out of bounds (to be out bounds, you must be touching the ground or something else physical that is out of bounds). So, his touching of the ball was nothing, in and of itself, except legal touching (which starts the game clock). The fact that he batted it forward is a foul. At no time did he illegally return to the field of play (after batting the ball, he actually landed out of bounds and stayed there until the ball became dead). Note that the ruling would be same if he actually grasped and threw the ball forward (while airborne) - that is still, by rule, batting.

So, the all-universe field judge first tosses his hat when the A player gets blocked OB. Then he drops his other hat - ooops - no more hats. Hmmm. Guess he'll drop a bean bag when the same player steps OB voluntarily. Then he starts the clock when the same player touches/bats the ball. Then he processes and drops his foul marker at the precise spot (yard line) of the batting when he sees the ball has been batted forward. He observes that the A batter has returned to the ground out of bounds, so no foul there. Then he observes the B player recover the kick and advance and run out bounds, so he gets the forward progress spot.
Actually, assuming they were in short kick formation, the L should take care of the inbounds/out-of-bounds activity of the A player. The S MAY be able to assist with the batting being forward (cross-field), as well as WHERE the ball was first touched (and start the clock). The thing the F must know is WHO touched it first. Between the three of them (at least) they should be able to assemble to facts and arrive at the correct ruling.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2012, 03:41:57 PM »
An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds.

That's what I was getting at.

To take this a step further regarding the clock- was the ball "legally touched in the field of play"??

El Macman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2012, 03:47:23 PM »
That's what I was getting at.

To take this a step further regarding the clock- was the ball "legally touched in the field of play"??

That's a technicality in the rule language that RR can't even explain rationally. In this specific case, I believe tha ball was over the field of play, anyway, but that really makes no difference. In the famous Peach Bowl batting play, I'm certain the ball was over out-of-bounds territory. Forget about the sideline. It is a line and not a plane. If the ball or player ain't touching something OB, it/he ain't OB.

Offline clearwall

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2012, 03:56:30 PM »
Uh, no compehendo, senor.

The player that batted the ball was airborne at the time he batted the ball. An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds. The only applicable rule was that he wasn't out of bounds (to be out bounds, you must be touching the ground or something else physical that is out of bounds). So, his touching of the ball was nothing, in and of itself, except legal touching (which starts the game clock). The fact that he batted it forward is a foul. At no time did he illegally return to the field of play (after batting the ball, he actually landed out of bounds and stayed there until the ball became dead). Note that the ruling would be same if he actually grasped and threw the ball forward (while airborne) - that is still, by rule, batting.

So, the all-universe field judge first tosses his hat when the A player gets blocked OB. Then he drops his other hat - ooops - no more hats. Hmmm. Guess he'll drop a bean bag when the same player steps OB voluntarily. Then he starts the clock when the same player touches/bats the ball. Then he processes and drops his foul marker at the precise spot (yard line) of the batting when he sees the ball has been batted forward. He observes that the A batter has returned to the ground out of bounds, so no foul there. Then he observes the B player recover the kick and advance and run out bounds, so he gets the forward progress spot.
Actually, assuming they were in short kick formation, the L should take care of the inbounds/out-of-bounds activity of the A player. The S MAY be able to assist with the batting being forward (cross-field), as well as WHERE the ball was first touched (and start the clock). The thing the F must know is WHO touched it first. Between the three of them (at least) they should be able to assemble to facts and arrive at the correct ruling.

Im sure he had some socks, skivvies, etc remaining in case there had been a fumble by the OSU player, foul after the ball was loose, etc

Offline zebra99

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 06:29:49 PM »
Uh, no compehendo, senor.

The player that batted the ball was airborne at the time he batted the ball. An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds. The only applicable rule was that he wasn't out of bounds (to be out bounds, you must be touching the ground or something else physical that is out of bounds). So, his touching of the ball was nothing, in and of itself, except legal touching (which starts the game clock). The fact that he batted it forward is a foul. At no time did he illegally return to the field of play (after batting the ball, he actually landed out of bounds and stayed there until the ball became dead). Note that the ruling would be same if he actually grasped and threw the ball forward (while airborne) - that is still, by rule, batting.

So, the all-universe field judge first tosses his hat when the A player gets blocked OB. Then he drops his other hat - ooops - no more hats. Hmmm. Guess he'll drop a bean bag when the same player steps OB voluntarily. Then he starts the clock when the same player touches/bats the ball. Then he processes and drops his foul marker at the precise spot (yard line) of the batting when he sees the ball has been batted forward. He observes that the A batter has returned to the ground out of bounds, so no foul there. Then he observes the B player recover the kick and advance and run out bounds, so he gets the forward progress spot.
Actually, assuming they were in short kick formation, the L should take care of the inbounds/out-of-bounds activity of the A player. The S MAY be able to assist with the batting being forward (cross-field), as well as WHERE the ball was first touched (and start the clock). The thing the F must know is WHO touched it first. Between the three of them (at least) they should be able to assemble to facts and arrive at the correct ruling.
"An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds"

Maybe purely semantics but I recall somewhere in the back of my mind that an airborne player IS considered in bounds even if he came from out of bounds.  I don't think a player can be in no man's zone!  :)

El Macman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 06:44:30 PM »
"An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds"

Maybe purely semantics but I recall somewhere in the back of my mind that an airborne player IS considered in bounds even if he came from out of bounds.  I don't think a player can be in no man's zone!  :)

I wish that were true (and I think it may have been at one time). If it was, then, when a team B player catches or recovers a free kick while airborne, then returns to the ground out of bounds, it would not be an illegal kick out of bounds. But we know that is not the case.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 07:10:15 PM »
This is an article from Referee written by a highly respected offficial in the NE

By Jerry Faust

Players who step out of bounds present sticky problems for football officials. There are complex factors that influence the legality of that act.

Both codes state that a foul is not warranted unless the out-of-bounds player re-enters the field of play or end zone. In other words, it is not a foul, per se, to go out of bounds. Rather, in all but one situation, the foul occurs when, and at the spot where, he returns inbounds. An exception applies to NCAA pass receivers (see below). Keep in mind that an airborne player is considered inbounds even if he jumped from a spot out of bounds.

First, remember there are three ways in which a player can go out of bounds: intentionally, accidentally or due to being blocked by an opponent. If the player is blocked out of bounds, both codes agree there will not be a foul if he returns at the first opportunity or attempts to return immediately. Thus, a team A player who was blocked out of bounds and intentionally delays in returning has fouled when he eventually steps inbounds.

Deciding what constitutes a delay is one of those tough calls that requires officials to read the intentions of the player. How many steps did it take for the out-of-bounds player to recover from the contact? Once recovered, did he move directly toward inbounds territory? How many more steps does he take to get inbounds? Finally, the exceptions do not apply if a player goes out of bounds to avoid contact. (From this point, the term “out-of-bounds player” will be used to indicate a player who was out of bounds by his own accord and has returned to the field of play or end zone.)

In NFHS rules, no player may intentionally go out of bounds during any down. Interestingly, NCAA rules do not prohibit team B or team R players from intentionally going out of bounds at any time.

NFHS rules also forbid all members of team A or team K from accidentally being out of bounds unless there is a change of possession during the down. In those cases, team A or team K players are allowed to accidentally step out of bounds after team B or team R has gained possession of the ball. The key factor is determining when the team A or team K player steps out of bounds. If it is prior to the change of possession (e.g. before a scrimmage kick is caught or recovered), the team A or team K player fouls even if he waits and returns after team B or team R possesses the ball. There is no foul if team B or team R players accidentally step out of bounds. In all cases, the NFHS foul is illegal participation, occurs at the spot of reentry, and carries a 15-yard penalty.

NCAA rules forbid team K players from going out of bounds (intentionally or accidentally) on any kick down. Like NFHS, that applies to both free kicks and scrimmage kicks. But in contrast, the NCAA prohibition is in effect for the entire down. Those live-ball fouls carry a five-yard penalty enforced from the previous spot.

NCAA rules place a second burden on kicking team players who go out of bounds and then return to the field: Such players may not touch the ball, even if team K is eligible to recover a kick.

Receivers out of bounds. The rulebooks differ when it comes to eligible receivers stepping out of bounds. In NFHS, a receiver who goes out of bounds and returns is guilty of illegal participation whether or not he touches a pass. The foul carries a 15-yard penalty. If a team B player commits pass interference against such a receiver, offsetting fouls occur. Under NFHS rules, a player who is an eligible receiver at the start of the down remains eligible throughout the down.

In NCAA rules, a receiver has not fouled when he reenters the field. The foul occurs when he touches a forward pass that has not been touched by team B. The infraction is illegal touching, which is enforced as a loss of down only (no yardage walked off) at the previous spot. In effect, an eligible receiver who steps out of bounds loses his eligibility when he steps inbounds. However, unlike players who are ineligible due to their uniform number or position at the snap, such a player is not subject to an ineligible downfield penalty.

Mechanics. Which officials are most likely to deal with players out of bounds? Given their location next to the sideline, the linesman and line judge will have the majority of the calls. When pressed against the sideline, wingmen must watch the wideout closely as he gets by the defensive back. Does the receiver step on the sideline as a result of contact, to avoid contact, intentionally or accidentally? While a pass is in flight near the sideline, the flank official must observe players going out of bounds in addition to interference-related action. So, like catch or no-catch calls, the official must watch feet and hands simultaneously.

I recommend taking a position looking down the sideline while keeping a six- to seven-yard spacing between the official and the players. Getting too close will hinder the official’s ability to see both feet and hands. If possible, the official should come to a stop, keep the head steady and move only the eyes. Finally, don’t ignore a player accidentally kicking the pylon; it’s also out of bounds.

A beanbag is required to mark the location a player leaves the playing field. I recommend dropping the bag every time, whether his departure was intentional, accidental or due to contact. Although a flag is not warranted if the player was blocked out of bounds and returns immediately, the bag on the field indicates you saw the action.

Jerry Faust is a veteran referee from Quincy, Mass. This column originally appeared in the 3/00 issue of Referee. Rules information has not been updated.


Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 07:24:29 PM »
There is an AR that lends support to the position there is "in bounds", "out of bounds" and something else.

AR 6-2-2-IV (not one of my favorites)

Free kick at the A-35. Airborne B17 has leaped from inbounds and is
the first player to touch Team A’s free kick when he receives the ball.
He subsequently lands out of bounds with the ball in his possession.
RULING: Foul, free kick out of bounds. Team B has these options:
It may accept a five-yard penalty at the previous spot with Team A
re-kicking; snap the ball at its 35-yard line at the hash mark; or snap
the ball at the inbounds spot five yards from where the ball crossed the
sideline.

El Macman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 08:30:03 PM »
In 2000, that was an excellent article. For 2012, there are many changes since 2000 that make it unreliable (for NCAA - can't speak for NFHS). It is NOT illegal touching for an A player OB voluntarily to touch the kick. We drop a hat for players OB (voluntarily or not). And an RR change regarding kicks out of bounds makes the statement about airborne players inconsistent, if not incorrect (which is not the author's fault, because that concept was rather universally believed to be true prior to RR's editorial change, and the AR TxMike notes).