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Author Topic: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO  (Read 24899 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« on: October 29, 2012, 11:44:44 AM »
Anyone see the onside KO near the end of the game?

Team A player steps on the sideline and leaped into air to bat the kicked ball (while it was in the air over "foul territory"  back into the field of play.  Nice try but ball was recovered by Team B anyway.  Any issues with this play?
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Roscoe

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 12:15:51 PM »
I thought about this when I saw it. Would this not have been illegal touching?
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 12:32:19 PM »
Agree. And didn't it go to replay where the call on the field was confirmed?
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El Macman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2012, 12:47:34 PM »
As for Illegal Touching, that is completely independent of the A player stepping out of bounds voluntarily. If Team A was (as a whole) was not yet eligible to touch the ball, then yes, you may have Illegal Touching. But, if the ball had reached B's restraining line or had been touched by B, then no - not illegal touching.
As for the A player stepping OB voluntarily, he is prohibited from returning to the field of play. However, if he does return (requires that he actually touch the ground inbounds), he has only fouled for returning to the field of play. Any action by him is governed by all other applicable rules. If he blocks, tackles, touches the ball, etc. - those actions are governed on their own merits. The fact that he does them are not fouls in, and of, themselves.
In this case he had stepped OB voluntarily, but was airborne when he touched the ball. An airborne player is neither inbounds nor out of bounds. So, his touching of the ball does not make the ball dead (he isn't OB). It might be Illegal Touching (as noted above), but it might be legal. It might be illegal batting (don't know if it was forward or backward), but it might be legal.
But the touching of the ball and the fact that he had stepped OB voluntarily are unrelated issues.
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2012, 12:59:00 PM »
I didn't see the play, but if the ball had gone ten yards, it wouldn't be illegal touching.  If the player who went OOB came back in bounds, it is a foul (Five yards from the previous spot or five yards from the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B) regardless of whether he touched the ball or not.  If the bat was forward, then it's a 10 yard foul.  So if Team A had recovered the ball it would be a rekick with either a 5 or 10 yard penalty depending on the direction of the bat.

How about this, the player from OOB bats the ball backwards after the FK had gone 10 yards to a team mate who recovers in the field of play and the "batter" never returns in bounds?

Best regards,

Brad

Didn't see RM's more elegant answer above before I wrote this.  I think we said the same thing...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 01:00:35 PM by TxSkyBolt »
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 01:38:24 PM »
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 01:56:04 PM »
The Sky Guy's question is where I was headed with this.  The way the rules are written today, Team A could deliberately kick the ball so that it takes a high enough bounce to get it over the out of bounds area and more than 10 yards from Team A restraining line while they are running a 6'6" "giraffe" over there into the out of bounds area.  He executes that 4 foot vertical leap, grabs the ball in the air, and propels it BACKWARDS to a teammate standing in bounds.  Team A's ball, 1st and 10.  That is BS!!   There is a reason why Team A is not permitted to come back in bounds legally, he is not supposed to be participating in the play, but yet he does so "legally" in this scenario. 
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El Macman

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 01:56:29 PM »
Well, ain't that interestin'.

The A player gets blocked OB, returns inbounds immediately (legal), then steps OB voluntarily, jumps, and bats the ball while airborne. The ball is touched in advance of the spot of the batting, making it illegal batting, while the A player returns to the ground OB.

So, no foul for illegal return.

No illegal touching.

Foul for illegal batting.

You'd be all-frickin'-world if you got all that in real time.

And you'd be all-frickin'-universe if you started the game clock on the legal touch/illegal batting by the A player (along with the all-world stuff).

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Offline bossman72

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 01:17:12 PM »
Illegal batting, tack on 10 yds.

Tough one to get!
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 01:37:10 PM »
The action is right on top of the covering official but wonder if someone cross field might have been able to pick it up. Or is it such a slight forward bat that cross field would not have been able to judge that  fromover 50 yards away?  (To say nothing of the mass of humanity between cross field and spot of teh action)
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Offline clearwall

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 01:55:51 PM »
is anyone willing to identify all the rules in play on this one? I have 6-2-11 that says no Team A player may leave the field and return unless he is blocked OOB(which does apply for the first OOB, the 5-yard penalty would govern the sercond time if he returns IB). Is there a rule governing OOB players touching the ball on kicks, or is that the same as a regular scrimmage play and another 5-yard illegal touch? We have 9-4-1 that governs illegal batting a loose ball forward. 6--1-3 allows for Team A to posess the ball since it passed the 10 yards, so i the player was IB, this would have been just an illegal batting as well, but the touch itself would be legal. Still legal here?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 02:01:56 PM »
Add in 9-1-3 re the legality of some of Team B's blocks which are suspect.  Also 3-3-2-a re when the cloick should be started.
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Offline clearwall

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 02:05:23 PM »
so is there not a rule that prevents an OOB player from touching the ball like SkyBolt was mentioning?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 02:13:42 PM »
An OOB player touching the ball makes the ball OOB. (4-2-3-a) But there was no OOB player touching the ball here.

There is no rule on kicks that is similar to the rule on legal fwd passes re a player who goesOOB an dthen being the first to touch the ball.   Should be though
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Offline clearwall

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 02:16:18 PM »
you disagree that the player that batted the ball was not OOB before he batted?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 02:19:23 PM »
Does not matter  that he was OOB BEFORE he batted...where was he WHEN he batted?  He was not OOB so by default he was in bounds.
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Offline sj

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2012, 02:19:38 PM »
We agree the player is not OB but is he by rule or definitions, "outside a boundary line?"  (4-2-3-a.) If so then the ball touches a player who is outside a boundary line and the ball is OB and dead when it's touched.

Assuming it wasn't touched by B then you have a KOB.

??
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 02:24:55 PM by sj »
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Diablo

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »
Quote from: sj on October 31, 2012, 02:19:38 PM
We agree the player is not OB but is he by rule or definitions, "outside a boundary line?"  (4-2-3-a.) If so then the ball touches a player who is outside a boundary line and the ball is OB and dead when it's touched.

Is the airborne player (A10) touching anything on/outside the boundary line?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 02:47:16 PM »
Quote from: sj on October 31, 2012, 02:19:38 PM
We agree the player is not OB but is he by rule or definitions, "outside a boundary line?"  (4-2-3-a.) If so then the ball touches a player who is outside a boundary line and the ball is OB and dead when it's touched.

Assuming it wasn't touched by B then you have a KOB.

??
  I know it does not say it, but it means touching something outside a boundary line.  A player in the air over "foul territory" is not out of  bounds.
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Offline clearwall

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 02:49:24 PM »
you dont have to re-establish yourself IB to be considered IB? I wouldve thought that since he went OOB, he IS OOB unless he comes IB
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 02:52:55 PM »
Since when did we start playing basketball?    ;)

Nope, there is no "re-establishment" process/procedure/requirement.  You are inbounds unless you are out of bounds.  If you are not meeting the definition of an out of bound splayer, then you are inbounds.
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Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 02:57:29 PM »
So if he's inbounds then he must've returned from out of bounds??
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 03:13:32 PM »
hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....berry interesting.....

Perhaps it is more correct to say one can be in bounds, out of bounds, and "in between bounds."
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Offline sj

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 03:15:17 PM »
The player is not OB. But he is outside the boundary line.

It seems to read that one way for the ball to be OB is to touch a player or anything that is "outside a boundary line."

So the ball touches him and is dead. KOB.

I'm not thinking this is right but just asking.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Ohio State - Penn State Onside KO
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 03:21:21 PM »
What we are saying is that section of the book means he is touching ground outside the boundary line.  If it were to be read the way you are suggesting, then when a ball carrier is running along the sideline , if he ever had an arm outside the line whil eboth feet owere off the ground, he would be out of bounds.  That is not the intent of that section
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