Author Topic: Need advice please  (Read 25042 times)

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Wettstein

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 06:41:58 PM »
Great responses guys.  I will try to answer or respond to as many of the questions/misconceptions as possible.

Man you need to go back and read what was posted.  I don't see anyone here saying they are trying to "even" out the contest.
These are some of the comments I was referring to:
For instance, I've been in a few games with a lopsided score and all of a sudden, the white hat decides this is a good time to change the clock rules so the game ends faster.
It's only pee wee football
I have no problem "bending the rulebook"
my white hat tells me not to throw that flag again.


Early in the season I worked a game between a well established team with a youth program against a newly formed one.
Est team had 35+ player on the sideline, probably 90% with playing experience.
New team had 17 players on the sideline, 1/3 had never played a game before in their lives.

I agree that sucks.  Nonetheless, that is the league's job to mange those issues, not the officials.

I'm reasonably sure he meant that only fouls that affected a play, or player safety, would be called.
Then why the comment about it being cold attached to it?  In other words, he calls games differntly based off of the temperture.  Not the right thing to do.

However, you need to be 110% sure and perhaps be able to back it up with video- such as your play example where the kids wasn't out of bounds.
I wasn't sure at the game, it was the next day once we watched the video.  It made for some good laughs at the banquet and it was sent to the league representatives.  Not specifically on that play but because the white hat challenged a spectator to a fight.

Some of these games are terrible mismatches and a few of the coaches, quite frankly have no business coaching kids, let alone stand on the field and chirp in our ears.
I agree.

We manage the games from a point of fairness and safety.
I disagree - not from what I have seen.

Most of us have played the game, have coached a sport at some level and have children who have played competitive sports. A Sunday afternoon of YFB is the most difficult day of my week. We see things, we don't normally see. We hear things we don't normally hear and we have to take actions that we don't normally have to take.
Hey!  Me too! 

You taking the player out for a play, or two, is an opportunity for you to listen to what you've been told and reinforce whatever proper techniques you have previously taught, because your "better lineman", might be succumbing to more primal instincts and punishing an opponent, simply because he's able to.
Assumptions don't make for good officiating.  The player was playing his "technique well - even confirmed by the official.  Was he a load to handle?  Yes, he's a strong player.  Was he picking on a smaller kid?  Nope, the other lineman was equal to his size and used to be at his skill level.  The coaches, as well as his father did an excellent job explaining to the kid about life.  His father has and always is positive and respectful to authories and teaching his kid the best lessons in life. Please do not assume otherwise.

As coach, you do get to choose whether "comforting" a 9 year old, for a judgment that may have gone against his wishes, or instructing him that sometimes the judgments of others may not support his expectations, and he needs to accept those results as easily as accepting results of judgments that he agrees with. I'd suggest he will gain far more lasting value from the latter.
I agree - but why should an official feel he can know enough about the kids to interject in his development?  They're part of the kids life for only a few hours.  I whole heartly accpet that responsibility as a coach, but I do get offended when someone with less knowledge of the team dynamics wants to make that task harder on me.  The officials have no knowledge of the kids with the bipolar struggles, or the alcoholic father, or the mother in Afgahistan, or the grandparent who passed away.  Stop picking on the kids, call the rules as the job is intended.

Thanks again for the input.   

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 08:30:58 PM »
For someone that says they want advice, you sure don't seem to be accepting it. 

If you read the officials manual it clearly identifies that there are a wide variety of ways that one must administer the game in certain situations.  It also tells an official that safety is of the utmost importance.  It sounds like your official may have been trying to exercise this philosophy....

My advice if you want it, is listen carefully to what an official may say during the course of the game...if he's talking to you it's probably important and check your emotion if perhaps he doesn't phrase in just the right way
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

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Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2012, 07:23:41 AM »
Wetts:
Most everyone visiting the Forums are at least HS varsity officials and there are NCAA officials here too.  Needless to say, most everyone really knows what they are talking about. 
Your inquies were amiably responded to, for which you had rebuttals.
Should the advise/rationale offered not staisfy your personal standards perhaps grab an officials' whistle.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2012, 09:34:28 AM »
Quote
I'm reasonably sure he meant that only fouls that affected a play, or player safety, would be called.
Then why the comment about it being cold attached to it?  In other words, he calls games differntly based off of the temperture.  Not the right thing to do.

I disagree.

We often manage the game differently in extreme weather conditions.  This is especially true in youth games, where the health and safety of the players is much more important than the outcome.

Wettstein

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 10:43:05 PM »
Okay - I've offended enough refs for this topic.  However I will give one piece of advice.  Please show some respect to these guys who spend hundreds of hours donating their time to helping the kids.  To date, I have yet met an official that donated his time to call a game.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2012, 08:53:54 AM »
Please show some respect to these guys who spend hundreds of hours donating their time to helping the kids.
I agree, as long as they're helping the kids and not "helping" me officiate.
 
Quote
To date, I have yet met an official that donated his time to call a game.
You have now.

A couple of our elementary schools have flag games as fundraisers, and we always have more volunteer officials than we can use for those games.

Also, one of our youth leagues has an annual all-star game held in the local 100K seat D-I stadium.  We volunteer for that game as well.

AFSST

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2012, 10:57:01 AM »
You have now.

A couple of our elementary schools have flag games as fundraisers, and we always have more volunteer officials than we can use for those games.

Also, one of our youth leagues has an annual all-star game held in the local 100K seat D-I stadium.  We volunteer for that game as well.

I'll bet a dollar every official with more than a few years experience has donated his time to call a game.  We do it all the time when we officiate pre-season scrimmages.  We officiate police vs firefighters fund-raising games.  We officiate semi-pro fundraising games.  We typically have the opportunity (and many do) to donate one game fee during the Breast Cancer Awareness month.

Wettstein, it appears you've had previous run-ins/encounters with officials that have somewhat soured your opinion of men/women in stripes.  God knows we don't do it for the money.  I get $56 for a varsity football game.  From the time I leave my house/work for the stadium, until the time I get home, it can be 5-6 hours (much more for guys that have to travel longer distances).  So we obviously don't do it for the money.  We also don't do it for personal glory (because unless your name is Ed Hochuli, you're not a celebrity).  We do it for the love of the game, for the love of the kids, and for the teamwork and camaraderie.

If you've never been an official, I highly recommend you give it a go.  Friday night on a football field is like Saturday morning in a duck blind (literally can be just as cold   :D) or in a patch of CRP hunting pheasants. 

The men who post on this forum understand their craft, and do respect the game and the coaches.  If the coaches attended just one weekly officials meeting or study group and saw the preparation and discussion, I think they would have a better understanding of officiating.

Two stories:

Last year, I had a game that was hotly contested.  Team with winning record (Team X) against team with losing record (Team Y) on losing record's field.  The game was close in the first half.  On the last play of the first half, Team X had the ball on their 30 yard line.  The QB threw a backward pass to the wideout.  The wideout broke a tackle, then ran back toward the middle of the field, making a big loop into the backfield juking more tackles.  He ran straight at the line, then right before he cross the LOS, he threw a pass downfield.  (So right now, all of the umpires are thinking the same thing...we have a broken play, so I probably have have a problem.)  The ball was caught on the sideline, the runner then broke 3-4 more tackles and dove for the pylon to score.  Team Y's coach came unglued.  He wanted a flag for ineligibles downfield.  I checked with my umpire and he gave me the "deer in the headlights look," so I knew he wasn't thinking about ineligibles, he was thinking only about illegal forward pass.  Since it was the last play of the first half, he had a chance to chew on us for a few minutes after the try, then before the second half started, I stood on his sideline during the warmup so he could chew on me a little longer.  And I said nothing to refute his claim that we should have had a flag.  I'm positive my umpire missed linemen downfield.  But then he said something that was a little over the top.  He said, "You guys just don't care.  You guys just show up and officiate the game, and you don't care.  My staff was at my house for 6 hours on Sunday preparing for this game."  I never flagged him (because when we miss a call, I let the coach vent and unless he uses the "7 words you can never say on television" loud enough for everyone in the stands to hear," I'm pretty much just listening).  I really wanted to say, "hey coach, if you spend all that time preparing, you might want to include a little tackling practice."

Last night I did a 5A playoff game (#2 vs #15).  Score was 42-0 with 2'30" left on the running clock.  On 4th down, losing team's QB runs for his life and angles out of bounds.  He's heading 45 degrees OOB, lets up, and has the ball tucked in when he hits the sideline.  Right at the sideline, the pursuing DB chops him down.   It was "bang bang," but based on the score, time, and circumstance, both my HL and I had a flag.  We gave the ball to the winning team, marked off the 15 yards, and put the ball in play.  Now the losing team's coaching staff is going nuts.  (I even spent a little time on the microphone explaining that the losing team did not reach the LTG, it was a dead-ball foul, and so the enforcement would be backwards, not forwards).  The losing team coaches could not understand the concept, even though my veteran HL explained in detail what had occurred and why the other team got the ball.  (We looked at videotape last night, and the QB was about a foot OOB when he was hit, so I'm satisfied we got it right.)

Every official on this forum has similar stories.  I'm typing all this Wettstein to make a small point.  It's a "contest," but it's not a contest between us and the kids/coaches/fans.  We wouldn't be on the field if our only intent was to get off the field.  We also spend hundreds of hours in self-study, group study, and group meetings.  We think football all of the time.  We sneak time at work to study a rule or call another official to discuss a play.  We have just as much passion for this game and for the kids that the coaches do. 

The difference between coaches and officials?  The coaches know the kids and the plays.  The officials know the rules.  The officials learn about the kids and the plays during the course of the game.  The coaches learn about the rules during the course of the game.   ;) 

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2012, 10:28:26 PM »
To date, I have yet met an official that donated his time to call a game.
Apparently you haven't been around the game very long.
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Wettstein

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2012, 12:34:17 PM »
I'll bet a dollar every official with more than a few years experience has donated his time to call a game.  We do it all the time when we officiate pre-season scrimmages. 
Wow - if you know any in Virginia, please let me know who.  When we ask for scrimmages, they always ask to be paid.

If the coaches attended just one weekly officials meeting or study group and saw the preparation and discussion, I think they would have a better understanding of officiating.
I would love to do that!  Great idea.  We always try to get an official to come out to a preseason coaches meeting but they always turn us down.

My staff was at my house for 6 hours on Sunday preparing for this game."
Really?  Really?  Really?  I would love to be a part of one this long just to see what it involves.

I really wanted to say, "hey coach, if you spend all that time preparing, you might want to include a little tackling practice."
Do you think they hadn't spent any time on tackling?  Not a very nice assumption.

It's a "contest," but it's not a contest between us and the kids/coaches/fans.
I AGREE!  My point exactly!

The coaches know the kids and the plays.  The officials know the rules.  The officials learn about the kids and the plays during the course of the game.  The coaches learn about the rules during the course of the game.   ;)
Another very poor assumption.  Officials should not be letting assumption control their calls or thought processess.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Need advice please
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2012, 12:50:36 PM »
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Okay - I've offended enough refs for this topic.

And here I thought you were going to move on.

You're a coach (I guess), we're officials.  Got it.  We rarely agree, check.

Coming here and drumming up sympathy for your position probably wasn't going to happen.  Lecturing us probably won't work.  Insulting us sure isn't.

If you have a specific problem with a specific official in your area, then take ownership as a stakeholder and approach the authority in your area responsible for him.  Complaining to an internet officiating board may make you feel better but does nothing to fix your issue.